medal bar ID possible?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hello gentlemen,

would it be possible to ID the owner of this beauty a friend of mine bought at one of the last Thies auctions...? Any help is welcome....

greetings

Heiko

[Paul C]

I would say yes due to the Vatikan St Gregorius 3rd class (PGr3) at the end. My guess is that it is from and captain or major. I would start by looking in the 1914 Army Rangliste. Do you have one?

[Guest Rick Research]

Please ALWAYS show the back or tell us what color the material there is. It is not always a good clue, but it very often is.

This officer was a Captain before the war (BZ3bmE) and apparently a well-decorated one, with an "early" RAO4-- normal for Majors. What confuses me is that his BMVO4X appears to be a late war gilt center one... and that class was given to Hauptleute, not Majors.

So.... it MAY be a very late 1916 Bavarian award JUST before being promoted. My first impression is a pre-war Adjutant or staff officer of some type, possibly in the General Staff or a Guards regiment. Not in a Baden regiment-- nothing from there for the war-- but some affiliation with Baden soon before the war (in a unit the Grand Duke was honorary Chef of?...).

But really every single CLUE possible BEFORE searching reduces the time (lots and lots and LOTS of time) needed to do something like this.

TIME is one thing that I just do not have enough of "to spare" with a room full of wartime award rolls to work on getting transcribed and typed for publishing.

[Paul C]

I looked through the Prussian 1914 Army ranklist an no match. Not only was there no match but I found only one officer with the PGr3! The Navy RL does not seem to list this award so if he was Navy then no way to find him. It is possible he was out of the army before 1914 and then recalled.

[Bob Hunter]

Excellent bar, Heiko. Good luck with the identification.

[Paul C]

I went through the 1908 Army RL and no match.

[HeikoGrusdat]

sorry for the delay.... here is the reverse, it is dark blue........

[Guest Rick Research]

99 out of 100 that indicates navy. No joy in 1914.

I suspect this guy was retired before the war with 25 years in and came back as a war's duration officer. I don't have any navy Rank Lists between 1908 and 1914 to look in, and it is needle in a haystack finding a retiree.

The combination suggests a long serving but low ranking (though very well decorated) technical officer frozen at Hauptmann/Kapit?nleutnant level after decades of service.

An Engineer? A Paymaster?

[Paul C]

I did check the 1918 Navy RL for the combination, but the problem is that the Navy RL does not show the Vatikan order. So when I found a person with the RAO4, PCO4 with the appropriate time in for the Centennial I looked in the DOA 1908/09. Well for 1918 no match. I checked the 1907 and 1910 and no match. That is about all I can do to find this guy.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Paul C

[Guest Rick Research]

It was NOT Stabzahlmeister Maass, who had the three German Orders-- he exchanged his KO4 for a KO3 after the 1914 Rank List came out and retired in 1915. Closest I could find.

[Ulsterman]

Vatican awards were and are registered in the monthly Vatican Epistle. The trick is finding a complete bound set back to 1900. We had a thread on this about @ 1 year ago.

[saschaw]

I find someone who's close, but apparently not close enough:

 

Major z.D. Rauthe, (1909) kommandiert zur Dienstleistung zum Landwehrbezirk Metz with RAO4, DA, BZ3bE, PGr3. No KO4, which is odd. Odd anyway the BMV4X on this bar.

 

Unless... some of the awards are replaced for higher grades, that were missing? Could someone check between 1909 and 1912 (he isn't listed in 1913 anymore).

 

I could imagine he won a KO3 in the meantime, was reactivated for the war, won a BMV3X...

 

It's just an idea! BZ3bE with PGr3 is just too unusual on a Prussian officers bar. I can hardly imagine there were two with it.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by saschaw

[Dave Danner]

I think you have him.

Rauthe retired on 21 April 1911, transferring to the civil service, and last appears in the 1910 rank list. He received the KO3 on 25 May 1911.

He was reactivated in World War I and promoted to Oberstleutnant z.D. on 18 June 1915. At the time, he was Kommandant of immob. Etappen-Kommandantur I Altona, so that could account for the Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz.

I can't find a listing for a BMV3X, but if he got it, you could be right that the KO4 and BMV4X are replacements.

[saschaw]

KO3 confirmed... great, thank you! Heiko, if your friend wants to get rid of the bar...

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by saschaw

[VtwinVince]

Great bar, and great research, gentlemen.

[Glenn J]

Major Paul Rudolph Richard Rauthe was a former Fußartillerie officer. Born 7 June 1862 at Löwenberg in Silesia, he entered Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 2 on 12 March 1881. Promoted to Portepee-Fähnrich on 15.11.81 and to Sekonde-Lieutenant on 13.9.82. He was seconded to the Artillerie- und Ingenieurschule from 1884 to 1886 and on 14 April 1887 transfered to Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 14. Promoted to Premier-Lieutenant on 24.3.90 and to Hauptmann on 14.9.93. On 17 October 1899 assigned as 2. Artillerie-Offizier vom Platz in Spandau. On 23 March 1901 assigned as a company commander in Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 3 followed by the appointment as Artillerie-Offizier vom Platz in Küstrin on 19 June 1902. 18 July 1903: Company commander in Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 8 and promotion to Major on 14.6.06 on the staff of this regiment. On 17 November 1906 assigned for service with Landwehrbezirk Metz and on 15 June 1907 placed at Disposal (z.D.) whilst retaining his appointment in Metz. Retired on 21 April 1911 with the uniform of Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 8.

Regards

Glenn

[Dave Danner]

Rauthe was also an author. Here is his entry from the 1913 edition of the Lexikon der deutschen Dichter und Prosaisten vom Beginn des 19. Jahrhunderts bis zur Gegenwart, by Franz Brümmer,

And here is the entry for Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 14 from the Bibliographie der deutschen Regiments- und Bataillons-Geschichten, by Paul Morris Hirsch (1905), showing that Rauthe authored both 1890s versions of the regiment's history:

[Daniel Krause]

..and I can confirm his BMV3X.

Greetings

Daniel

[saschaw]

:cheers: