saschaw Posted September 22, 2006 Posted September 22, 2006 (edited) As I I've heard here was someone who likes nice ribbon bars I'd like to show you a bar from my father's collection, which unfortunally has no name - yet. As it was from the former G. Seymor collection and bought from Thies auction I think it has yet been identified ... It's a nine place ribbon bar in big old style, with Iron Cross IInd class 1870, Baden Military Carl Friedrich order, a Baden Zähringer with swords, both Prussian Red Eagle and Crown order without swords, the Prussian 1870 "Kriegsdenkmünze", the Baden "Felddienstauszeichnung" with bars for 1866 and 1870-1871, followed by a Saxon Albrechts order and a Schwarzburg Ehrenkreuz, both without swords ... I think (and hope) it is not really difficult, is it? Avers: Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
saschaw Posted September 22, 2006 Author Posted September 22, 2006 (edited) And the revers: pretty ugly as known for these early officer's bars. Notice: not yet an long service award, no Centenarmedaille, no clasps on the 1870 medal ... Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
Ulsterman Posted September 22, 2006 Posted September 22, 2006 (edited) Mr. Seymor had good stuff. I'll bet he identified it. My apologies to Mr. T.-the facts have been explained. Edited September 23, 2006 by Ulsterman
Guest Rick Research Posted September 23, 2006 Posted September 23, 2006 Ah, at least I know that has found a good home now! George TRIED to make a scan of that for me for the eventual second edition of my online ribbon bar article (a new AUTHORIZED version, not the one which has been stolen from me)... but he was TERRIBLE at scans and never got the hang of how to do it. THIS was as "good" as I was able to "improve" his scan to me :[attachmentid=54476]Unfortunately, once he got the "new technology" he didn't send me XEROXES any more, which I kept and scribbled on for my reference files.We were both intrigued by this VERY non-regulation MKFVO cipher-- not officially authorized until 1917--and the freakish "Saxon style" EK mini device-- the earliest one we had ever seen!George DID identify the bar... but without my paper aides memoires, I cannot remember who it was:the officer either died or retired in the late 1880s-- that much I can recall. So this bar dates from about 1883 or so, very roughly. He was NOT listed in the 1908/09 Orders Almanac, so had apparently died by then, if not actually in the 1880s.The SCHWARZBURG Honor Cross will, I think, RE-identify him, since he was a Major in that Infantry Regiment I believe. Anyone with Rank Lists circa 1882-1887 please look. It's a Red Eagle 4, Prussian XXV, and if my memory serves, a Saxon Albert Knight SECOND Class and a Schwarzburg Honor Cross 3rd Class. I am positive he was infantry. I don't remember what grade Z?hringen Lion X it was.
saschaw Posted October 5, 2006 Author Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) Thanks for the information, nice to see another picture of a bar which is now here Does not anyone have the matching rank lists, pleeeeeaaase Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
saschaw Posted February 8, 2009 Author Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) Rick Research said: Anyone with Rank Lists circa 1882-1887 please look. Gentlemen please, anyone? My "oldest" rank list at the moment is 1909... Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
Guest Rick Research Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 I have remembered him. It was as if George just spoke it in my ear all over again. You will name your firstborn son and heir after me, of course? back with scan-- seems I misremembered his DEATH date as RETIREMENT date. :rolleyes:
Guest Rick Research Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 And now, the resolution to Sascha's Greatest Baden Mystery---DEEP breaths, Sascha... DEEEEEEP breaths.....
Guest Rick Research Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 CHRISTIANFRIEDRICHHEINRICH GOCKEL EK2 1870:The only rank date I have anything on wasMajor 22 September 1877-- in 1879 5./ Baden Dragoner Regiment 22.Out of all the many hundreds of groups I talked about with George over 30 years, apparently I misremembered. I think now (obviously, from the below) that Gockel must have RETIRED 1887-88 not died then. In any event, 1880s Ranglisten will narrow down when he got the Schwarzburg Honor Cross. With no EK oakleaves or 1897 Centenary medal your bar dates between that years and 1895.And here he was, ALIVE and breathing in 1908--The ODD transfer I remember was to TRAIN, not INFANTRY. His CORRECT Saxon Albert Order-Knight 2nd here shows on old Rank Lists as "SA3a" because it was the pre-1876 design change model-- BUT he had the smaller Knight 2nd as we understand the class designation and as it appears in 1908. You'll have to sort out which Z?hringen Lion class he actually got since he is shown with "BZ3aX" in the 1879 Rangliste and "mE" to that in 1908-- along with the ERROR Voluntary Medical Care 1870/71 Cross. Free at last, Good God Almighty, free at LAST.(One less thing off MY mind. )
saschaw Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Ah, finally. Thank you, Rick. Nice, very nice. And thanks to Mr. Seymour. My father loves anything from Train-Bataillon 14 as it's the very only unit in Durlach, where he has been born. However the BZ thing is odd. I though Hermann Göring was the only one to "upgrate" his Lion. I cannot check at the moment but think Gockel got rather a 3aX "sE", as he's not wearing oaks to his bar... Rick Research said: (One less thing off MY mind. ) And of mine... Now thinking about the harder cases. PS: still thinking about Gockel: he may have gotten a peace time Zähringer 3aE up to 1908 and lists them both together, as if they were just one award - foolishly, but possible... PPS: What is "BdJM"? One of the about 100 "Erinnerungsmedaille für 1906"? Ah, born in 1836 he might have entered military service in 1854, what makes him "in service" in 1856, plus still alive in 1906.... nice... Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
Ulsterman Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 In the 1886 Ranklist (p.395) I have him noted in Badische Train-Battalion Nr. 14:"Abg. Comm., Maj. Gockel als Ob. Lt. m. P. u.d. U.d. Drag. R.22 Absch. Bew.;"
Guest Rick Research Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Yup, so retired in 1886. I've always had "end of the 1880s" stuck in my mind about him-- that's when this ribbon bar dates to.Now it is alllllllll up to Sascha to get his military records from the Baden War Archive and find out all the details and inconsistencies. Have you got citations for the 1870-71 MKFVOs?
Naxos Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Here is Gockel's entry in the Personalien of the 3. Bad Drag Rgt Nr.22 History 1898Hardy Edited February 9, 2009 by Naxos
saschaw Posted February 9, 2009 Author Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Thanks Gentlemen, again a mystery solved. Hardy, do you yet know this one? I have not downloaded anything by know but actually we should get everything. Who knows how long this site will "be" - http://tarlith-history.livejournal.com/510...?thread=7182483 Rick Research said: Have you got citations for the 1870-71 MKFVOs? Citations? I don't even have a "pure 1870/71! list. Only F. Zelosko's "full" Karl Friedrich list, 1806 to 1918. That indeed may have his citation or something on his career... Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
Naxos Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks Gentlemen, again a mystery solved. Hardy, do you yet know this one? I have not downloaded anything by know but actually we should get everything. Who knows how long this site will "be" - http://tarlith-history.livejournal.com/510...?thread=7182483Citations? I don't even have a "pure 1870/71! list. Only F. Zelosko's "full" Karl Friedrich list, 1806 to 1918. That indeed may have his citation or something on his career...Danke, hab schon alles runtergeladen (Got it already) Hardy
saschaw Posted February 10, 2009 Author Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Zelosko's volume two (by the way, great books!) had something on him, however no "real" citation and it sounds there never was one. It is just a standard "in Anerkennung hervorragender Tapferkeit und ausgezeichneter Leistungen während des gegenwärtigen Feldzugs". The only new, though quite interresting information is he died on November 23rd, 1915. Edited May 21, 2023 by saschaw
Guest Rick Research Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 But I bet there is a regimental history covering 1870-71 and THERE will be found some details. We must get you to enter the Big Dark Damp Underground Archives and do Mighty Battle with the Giant Shelf Spiders. Only when you are covered with scars and, OK, drool a little in public, will you be a Research Gnome. That, the squint and hunch are how we recognize each other in public. :cheeky:
Naxos Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Not much to add from the Regimental history Rittmeister Gockel commanded the 5th squadron during the war of 70/71. Here are some details to the awards he received in 1871
Naxos Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 He received the Iron Cross second class on April 18, 1871
saschaw Posted September 17, 2020 Author Posted September 17, 2020 More than ten years later, I think the only thing that's missing here might be a nice portraiture?! Gentlemen, please welcome Oberstleutnant Christian Gockel, naturally or unfortunately with his full size medal bar, and not just the ribbons. The picture is taken from Henning Volle's 2019 Die Orden und tragbaren Ehrenzeichen des Großherzogtums und der Republik Baden, where it's used to show medals bars in wear and their precedences. 3
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