Imperial Russia 4th class St. George cross for other ranks

[David Gregory]

I bought this example of the St. George cross at the militaria show in Kassel yesterday.

It looks good to my untrained eye and I would appreciate any opinions on authenticity from more experience collectors. The mounting plate is obviously much younger, but this is how I received it.

Is it possible to determine approximately when the cross was issued? It it possible to find out who it was awarded to and for which action or event?

Since there doesn't seem to be much happening in this section, many thanks in advance for any replies whatsoever,

David

Edited November 5, 2006 by David Gregory

[Treloarth]

It looks exactly the same as a genuine one that I have.

[Igor Ostapenko]

I'm sorry , but this cross - FAKE !

[David Gregory]

I'm sorry , but this cross - FAKE !

Ouch!

Thank you Igor.

Compared to some of the very crudely cast crosses that I have seen, I was optimistic that this one was good. Never mind, it can only get better after this.

Can you show or tell me what clearly makes it a fake, e.g. finish, size, characterics? Is it a well-known fake or replica?

What are the correct dimenions, weight, etc. for a good example?

Treloarth: could you post your example, too, please?

Many thanks in advance,

David

[Ed_Haynes]

I'm sorry , but this cross - FAKE !

Reasons, please. Such unsupported statements reek of other fora.

[Igor Ostapenko]

Just see please 7 !

Edited November 6, 2006 by Igor Ostapenko

[David Gregory]

Igor,

Many thanks for that comparison. Is that the only criterion or are there other aspects of the cross that are definitely bad?

What should the dimensions and weight of the cross be?

Thanks again,

David

[Ed_Haynes]

So the numbering was done by only one set of hands?

[Igor Ostapenko]

David !

In "your" cross - all bad !

St. George cross - not rare award

and you can buy another good cross !

I collect st. George awards for foreighners .

You can see my posts and save the pictures .

If you need to ask - you know my e-mail .

Regards,

Igor O.

[Treloarth]

David !

In "your" cross - all bad !

St. George cross - not rare award

and you can buy another good cross !

I collect st. George awards for foreighners .

You can see my posts and save the pictures .

If you need to ask - you know my e-mail .

Regards,

Igor O.

[Treloarth]

I can see that the "7" is different, and I can see that the ring is simpler than on Igor's. However, there are many known genuine ones with a simple ring, and with well over 100,000 awards in this class alone the numerals surely were engraved by different hands over a long period of time. I recommend a test of the precise dimension, precise weight and metal content. I suggest that you test for silver, because it should be in the Russian standard silver. I suggest that it should be close to Weight 11.3 g. and Width 34.4 mm. There are plenty available, and it would hardly be worth making such a good quality fake.

Treloarth

[Igor Ostapenko]

"new" cross in my collection .

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11744

Anybody have additional information ? HELP !!!

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

I know the pics are not the greatest... will post better if needed when it arrives but would appreciate your opinions on this one:

Thanks!

Dan

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi all,

I know the pics are not the greatest... will post better if needed when it arrives but would appreciate your opinions on this one:

Thanks!

Dan

Fake cross . Sorry !

[Hauptmann]

Hi Igor,

Sorry to hear that but I don't have much in it so it's not a great loss. Hope to get a real one some day. For the time being this will have to be a filler.

Thanks for the quick info on this!

Dan

[dedehansen]

Greetings Igor !

 

Speaking about St Georg's Cross for foreigners, sometimes you will see this award on German medal bars from the period 1866, i.e. the "Prussian-Austrian War."

 

The attached photos show a St Georg Cross 4. class on a Prussian medal bar,  BUT...

 

... this cross looks very questionable to me !

 

The arms look very flat... not barrel shaped.  The molded edges look different than those of known originals.

 

Any opinions?

St Georg Kr 4.Kl Rueckseite.jpgSt Georg Kr 4.Kl Vorderseite.jpg

 

Hi,

 

is it possible that you post pictures from the whole medalbar front and back ?!

 

The number on the back is issued for the franco prussian war.

 

Regards

Andreas 

[JapanX]

Hi Andreas:  Here is the whole bar, front and back.

 

I do not understand, why a foreign award (the St Georg Cross) is not positioned at the END of a Prussian bar.

 

 

 

Because they have rules in Prussia Franz

 

 

1) Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class 

2) Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3rd Class with Swords

3) Prussian Red Eagle Orders 3rd or 4th Classes with Swords 

4) Prussian Crown Order 3rd or 4th Classes with Swords

5) Prussian Gold Military Merit Cross (aka “the Enlisted Pour le Meriteâ€)

6) Prussian Military Decoration 1st Class (silver cross of same design as #5)

7) Prussian Military Decoration 2nd Class (medal worn, like #s 1-6, on “Iron Cross†ribbon)

8) Russian Order of Saint George 4th Class  

9) Austro-Hungarian Maria Theresa Order-Knight (same circumstances as #8)

10) Prussian Lifesaving Medal “on the Ribbon†

10a) Prussian Hohenzollern House Order/Eagle on peacetime statute ribbon

11) Prussian Red Eagle Orders 3rd and 4th Classes, then Crown Orders 3rd and 4th (peacetime)

12) Prussian Red Cross Medal 2nd Class (instituted 1898)

13) Prussian Cross of the General Decoration (awarded 1900-1918, replacing #13a)

13a) Prussian General Decoration Medal in Gold (only awarded 1890-1900)

14) Prussian General Decoration Medal

15) Prussian XXV Years Long Service Cross (at this time awarded only to officers)

15a) Prussian Red Eagle Order Medal, Crown Order Medal, or Kriegerverdienst Medal (natives)

16) Principality of Hohenzollern Honor Cross (House Order) 2nd and 3rd Classes (war or peace) 

17) Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class

18) 1864 DÑŒppel Cross

19) 1864 Alsen Cross

20) 1870-71 War Medals (only one type could be worn)

21) 1866 War Crosses (only one type could be worn)

22) 1864 War Medal

22a) Colonial Medal (created 1913 with bars retroactive to the 1880s)

23) 1904-06 Southwest Africa Medal (combatant or steel)

24) 1900-01 China Medal (combatant or steel)

25) 1848-49 Principality of Hohenzollern Campaign Medal (for the 1848/49 uprisings there)

26) 1898 Jerusalem Cross (for the Kaiser’s visit: “always to be wornâ€)

27) 1861 Wilhelm I Coronation Medal

28) 1897 Wilhelm I Centenary Medal

28a) Electoral Hesse Jubilee Medals (given to surviving pre-1866 veterans)

29) Hannoverian Jubilee Medals (ditto)

30) Orders from states other than Prussia “except for #s 8 & 9â€

31) European medals

Edited February 20, 2015 by JapanX

[JapanX]

 

... this cross looks very questionable to me !

 

 

 

By these photos this cross looks ok.

 

And it`s inside diapason for F-P war crosses

 

Regards,

Nick

Edited February 20, 2015 by JapanX

[dedehansen]

Hi Nick, at number 8 you mention the order 4th class not the Georgskreuz 4th class.

 

The order a decoration for officer the Georgskreuz ist for NCO´s.

 

I´ve seen serval medal bars with the Georgskreuz 4th class:

 

a) 2 with Georgskreuz at the end

 

b) Georgskreuz behind the IC 2nd class

 

c) Georgskreuz behind some military medals

 

d) Georgskreuz behind the long service medal

 

Regards

Andreas

[JapanX]

Yes, I agree, position of St.George crosses in german medal bars is quite unstable

Btw, I know another bar with practically the same position of St.George cross for soldiers

As for the official order - I posted it as possible and more or less realistical explanation for such position of St.George cross in this bar.

Regards,

Nick

[Overside]

This Cross has the 84 hallmark stamp by the suspender ring with not other information on it. I am told this is an earlier version, possible pre WW1. It is very different from other and feels, looks and seems correct. I would really appreciate further information as it is outside of my experience.

[JapanX]

This cross was made in Moscow by Dmitry Kuchkin (ДК) workshop somewhere between 1908 and 1917.

[kirill88]

Any thoughts on this cross?

[Eric Gaumann]

I am not an expert by any means as I own only one GC4.  But I did do my homework before buying it and I have to say this example looks good.  Again, no expert and just my opinion.

[kirill88]

thanks for the 2nd opinion!!