Soviet Sotheby's Cancels Auction of Russian Orders

[JimZ]

Translated: (My translation....I hope the russian members will excuse my lack of grace in translating!!)

We are grateful to Sotheby's auction house for accepting the solution which shows the respect and good relations that Sothebeys has towards the Russian Federation said Anatoliy Vilkov, commenting on removal from the Sotheby's Auctions of a number of Soviet orders.

The London Sotheby's auction house had, on the day before the auctions, following demand from the Russian side, removed from the its auctions 11 Soviet orders. The public relations representative of the auctions held a press service reporting to journalists. ?Yes, we confirm, that all items indicated were removed from auction" said the Sotheby's representative.

?Additional operational data confirmed, that all those rewarded had heirs who lived and live in Russia", - he said. The overwhelming majority of orders are taken into possesion by criminals, some of which at present are serving a sentence".

?We try to resolve with the agents of thes orders which we consider a priori honest acquirers, and will look to resolve with them the problem about the return of these orders to the Russian Federation"

Original Russian Context:

Сотбис cнял с торгов ордена

23.11.2006 11:13 | www.rian.ru

Мы признательны аукционному дому "Сотбис" за принятое решение, это говорит об уважении, которое проявляет "Сотбис" к Российской Федерации и нашим взаимоотношениям, сказал РИА Новости заместитель главы Росохранкультуры Анатолий Вилков, комментируя снятие с торгов "Сотбис" советских орденов.

Лондонский аукционный дом Сотбис накануне по запросу российской стороны снял с торгов 11 советских орденов, сообщил журналистам представитель пресс-службы аукциона. "Да, мы подтверждаем, что все указанные лоты были сняты с торгов", - сказал представитель Сотбис.

"Дополнительные оперативные данные подтвердили, что все награжденные и их наследники проживали и проживают в России, - сказал Вилков.- Подавляющей частью орденов мошенническим путем завладели преступники, которые в настоящее время отбывают наказание".

"Мы будем добиваться встречи со сдатчиками этих орденов, которых мы считаем априори добросовестными приобретателями, и решать с ними вопрос о возвращении в Российскую Федерацию этих орденов",- добавил замглавы Росохранкультуры.

Edited November 23, 2006 by jimzammit

[JimZ]

Another article:

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti commentator Anatoly Korolev) - Russia's Federal Service for the Supervision of Mass Communication and Cultural Legacy Legal Compliance has asked for the cancellation of the announced sale of several high Soviet state awards, scheduled by Sotheby's for late November.

London is surprised: why not sell Russian orders at a highly reputable international auction house if the awards' owners wish to do so? It is their personal business and certainly not the business of the government. The government has no right to decide for the owners or their heirs whether they want to sell the relics. This would have been understood if the orders had been stolen, but if everything is clear on this count, the whole problem is more ethical than legal.

The officials say that the Russian law bans buying and selling state awards. Anatoly Vilkov, the spokesman for the cultural watchdog, says that the recipients of the awards - a Suvorov Order, an Ushakov Order, a Kutuzov Order, a Nakhimov Order and a Bogdan Khmelnitsky Order - lived and died in Russia, and not a single permission has ever been issued to take the orders abroad. This means Russia suspects theft and illegal trafficking.

The orders, of course, have material value well into five digits for many collectors. The Lenin Order is made of pure gold, and Lenin's relief in the center - of platinum; the Suvorov Order has a gold relief on platinum field. However, there is another, more powerful, moral aspect to it. When a person is decorated, he signs an unwritten contract with the nation, saying that the state award belongs, in a sense, to the state as much as to the recipient because it marks his personal achievements as well as the glory of the entire country.

Arguably, this is the key source of contention. Gone are the heroes who displayed exceptional valor and courage. Gone is the country which bestowed the awards on its heroes. Selling an order looks like selling a deed it was awarded for, like breaking a moral taboo. Maybe it is a purely Russian attitude to state awards; in any case, it is a reality Sotheby's has just woken up to.

The opinions expressed in this article are those of the author and may not necessarily represent the opinions of the editorial board.

[JimZ]

We all new this was happening but maybe not on such a scale as this time!

So what does the future of collecting Soviet ODMs hold in store.

- Is exporting them a crime? According to Russian law yes!!

- Is owning someone elses awards a crime in russia.... and out of russia?

- Are Russian dealers now to be considered as "criminals"?

- Are awardees who may still be alive considered as criminals if they sold their awards? And what if they gave their awards instead?.

Heck....I know some one who might own the odd russian order or medal out there. Am I associating with criminals !!! Where will Russia draw the line! I mean if it cna be proved that high end groups or orders/medals are actually stolen or obtained through criminal activity, then I agree that there should be some form of claim. BUT what about the rest of the Soviet ODMs circulating in the Russian "free" market?

Jim

Edited November 23, 2006 by jimzammit

[Ed_Haynes]

Disturbing, sobering, and not at all surprising.

Isn't the posesssion of stolen property pretty generally seen as a crime?

[hunyadi]

Same thinig is in the pipe lines for US awards with the badly written 'Stolen Valor Act'. Its interesting that there is a thinner line between 'buying' Soivet orders and 'stealing' Soveit orders. I can understand the Russian Federations position as it has seen since the early 90's collectors pouring into Russia and leaving with trunkloads of historical items. Will it truly ever 'dry up'? I cant say. But the ethical question of the moment is 'does the Russian federation need to hold on to every decoration - and even - will they?' can you see them hoarding all the Order of the Red Star's and using them for historical, cultural research? Doubt it - so what happens when a family line dies off - or the old soldier who passes silently in his sleep and the children dont have any interest in the items - flea market? or trash can? Who benefits in the end? As collectors we do hold a (small) yet important role in the preservation of history. Think of how many 'globaly' recognised treasures woudl be simply lost to decay and rot had it not been for an individual to cherish and keep relics of the past - even ones that were never in a direct family connection to the family of the collector. Rembrants? Van gough? - in many of these cases it was never 'a state' to preserved such items...

[Stogieman]

My biggest question is: How does one "sign an unwritten contract"???

[Stogieman]

PS: Y'all do realize that ebay will (in the interest of respecting the desires of the Russian culture) move very quickly to ban the sale of all things Soviet??

[Riley1965]

So,

this means that we should treasure what we have in our collections for soon nothing will be available?!!

Doc

[Stogieman]

No, it means that soon the police of the world will be coming to return to the Russian Federation all of the items you own... you see, since they can all be tracked and confirmed (OK, many, not all).... the entire nation claims that all their family heirlooms were stolen by "criminal elements"....... you are not in receipt of stolen property!! Bye Bye collection!

[Ed_Haynes]

No, it means that soon the police of the world will be coming to return to the Russian Federation all of the items you own... you see, since they can all be tracked and confirmed (OK, many, not all).... the entire nation claims that all their family heirlooms were stolen by "criminal elements"....... you are not in receipt of stolen property!! Bye Bye collection!

Or, more likely, that the effective market value of our collections has now fallen to $0,000.00. That it will be impossible (or very difficult) to sell. (Tell Igor and Alexei?)

Please send your valueless junk to me.

[Stogieman]

Or, more likely, that the effective market value of our collections has now fallen to $0,000.00. That it will be impossible (or very difficult) to sell. (Tell Igor and Alexei?)

Please send your valueless junk to me.

[Riley1965]

Ed & Stogieman,

Thank You for your response!!! I need to add a Nevsky before it's too late. The Nevsky is the highest Order I want. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the other's. But, to be realistic... The Nevsky would be in the price range I can afford/save for.

Doc

[order_of_victory]

We seem to touch on this topic ervery few months, and every time predictions seems dire, but nothing has yet to come of it

I personaly think Sotherbys are bowing to pressure from the Russian State, but I cant see prices going down I can see them going up as there will be fewer available and less places to buy them.

Well I am just going to barraked the doors, just in case that Helicopter going over head is the Spetznaz coming to get back my medals

Order of Victory

[Ed_Haynes]

We do need to remember that they are a major world-class auction house, not just a numismatic or phaleristic speciality shop, rather like Spink in this regard. Most of their business is in real art. I'd guess this message is being sent having more to do with icons than with medals.

[DutchBoy]

I think it must be said that Russian law does not apply to any other country, so if the Russian government claims a certain piece is stolen, they would need to produce some evidence of that fact first. No foreign law enforcement agency anywhere would confiscate an item unless clear evidence that it was stolen is produced.

If it ever came to that, realistically I think they would only ever bother to prosecute a handful of easily proven cases (in which case I would support it if they were actually stolen). All in all, though, I think the Russian authorities would end up being more embarrassed than anything else after a while, and not many countries would go along with what is clearly a waste of time.

Edited November 23, 2006 by DutchBoy

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

I see the whole situation similar to the comments of Ed and Matthjis.

The fact might be, that today the top high-end awards - Suvorov 1cl, etc., etc. - at the market might be more linked to (real) criminal activities, than in the early 1990s. There had been not only 1 of such an award at Sotheby's, but several of them, as we could read. So maybe someone robbed a collector or museum in Russia .

Well, the actions of the Russian Government will drive the prices additionally .

Best regards

Christian Zulus

I think it must be said that Russian law does not apply to any other country, so if the Russian government claims a certain piece is stolen, they would need to produce some evidence of that fact first. No foreign law enforcement agency anywhere would confiscate an item unless clear evidence that it was stolen is produced.

If it ever came to that, realistically I think they would only ever bother to prosecute a handful of easily proven cases (in which case I would support it if they were actually stolen). All in all, though, I think the Russian authorities would end up being more embarrassed than anything else after a while, and not many countries would go along with what is clearly a waste of time.

[JimZ]

I really doubt that small collectors could get into any trouble although they ultimately drive the market! As for dealers, unless they are sure of the provenance of their serial numbered stocks then I could see a wee bit more of a hassle!

What will this do for collectors..... nothing much. Make the high end orders tougher to find! But the FSU countries are still flowing with Russian orders and medals. Take the Ukraine for example....

Now if e-bay were disabled....that would be inconvenient! But on the other hand, sellers will find it harder to move their stocks and with less competition through auctions, sellers in FSU countries will no longer be able to sell to the whole world but only to those buyers that can get there. With demand less than supply, prices will actually come down in the FSU countries. Of course such pieces will then be resold in a market where demand will outstrip supply and a new 'profit centre' will be created! Its just a shifting of profits from one seller to another and the market will find its balance again. It always does.

Now the question is, How seriously will Russia really take this? I think it has much more important internal issues to attend to before sending the 'red army' out to reclaim all its lost orders and medals...... Sealing the borders to ODMs maybe (it has!) .... but retracing and repatriating them ...... nah!!!

Again, if items were stolen or obtained through criminal activity, then Sotheby did well to remove auctions. We should not sanction illegal activity. But on the other hand, an awardee or heir who owns soviet medals can decide to sell these items then it is up to them! For an act of bravery, the Soviet state (now defunct) has made an award. It is the state which should remain in debt to the awardee for his act of bravery or life. Awarding a medal can never cancel the debt that the country has towards the awardee or worse make the awardee (or his heirs) owe anything more to the state than what has already been given in the first place.

Of course my logic may appear fuzzy to some but that is how I see it. I also have no doubt that some of these orders have found better homes in collections where they were displayed, researched and appreciated, then some of the cans or drawers they may have been previously kept in! Of course, this is not to detract anything from those vets who still wear their medals with pride....and rightfully so!!!

Jim

[JimZ]

Yet another article:

The British trading house Sotheby?s has received a request to withdraw from an upcoming auction state orders of the former Soviet Union, a Sotheby?s spokesperson told ITAR-TASS.

The auction will be held in London on November 28. About 2,000 Russian works of art and objects of culture will be put up for sale.

The spokesperson stressed that Sotheby?s never sold cultural and historical valuables without permission, and just for this reason the request of Russian state service for the protection of cultural heritage (Rosokhrankultura) would be examined on an urgent basis.

Russian authorities demanded removing 28 lots from the auction. They include orders of Kutuzov, Ushakov, Suvorov, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Lenin and the Order of the Red Banner of Combat.

All decorations have personal numbers allowing identifying their owners.

Starting prices of the Soviet orders vary from $2.000 to $130.000.

The Russian side does not object to sales of orders of Imperial Russia that will be broadly represented at the auction, including the chain of the Order of St. Andrew the First Called, the price of which is $428.000.

Puzzled..... No objection to Imperial Russian Orders..... because its is not serial numbered and its owner cannot be identified. Does that make someone's act of bravery any less because his ODM was not serial numbered? The logic behind this eludes me......

Jim

[order_of_victory]

Does this mean Soviet Order will soon be sold with the seriel numbers removed

Order of Victory

[Ed_Haynes]

Does this mean Soviet Order will soon be sold with the seriel numbers removed

Order of Victory

As they were way back in the 1970s and 1980s?

[JimZ]

Not scratched out serial numbers !!! Please not that!!!! Surely its more criminal to deface any ODM then trade it! They must see that!

I think sellers might, at some stage start to disclose serial numbers only to their inner circle of buyers....or maybe even after the buyer has paid....till then Order of Lenin Serial number 153XXX to 155XXX may have to suffice. Its always an alternative to defacing the orders!

In any case, with so many orders around, I seriously think the Russian resources will be busier with the more important matters to the motherland. Maybe as someone suggested, this was just a warning shot fired to make the loudest noise possible ..... and scare some people away!!

Jim

[rboomsma]

Disturbing, sobering, and not at all surprising.

Isn't the posesssion of stolen property pretty generally seen as a crime?

Yes it is. Do we really want stolen orders and medals in our collections. I don't.

I suspect that the orders being auctioned were likely stolen. Not an uncommon event in Russia, given the value of those rare orders. I think Russia has the right to go after stolen items, if they are truely stolen and can be proven. Many Museums and state reserves have been looted, and have no place in private collections.

I would not be suprised to see Russia start to go after large dealers who have very very rare items for sale. Wanting to know how they obtained them and from whom.

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I detect a common theme that we, as collectors, not only do not want stolen items (please pardon the double negative) in our collections, but would certainly refuse to buy such and would even aid in of seeing an end to such practices. Access to the description and serial numbers of stolen pieces would be beneficial in several ways.

It would give us a list of what to look for, thereby preventing the purchase such items. It would give us data to compare to our present collections, thereby offering us the opportunity to return stolen items. It would at least slow down the resale (and thereby theft) of such items; and it would prevent the possibility of the confiscation of items which in fact were not stolen - I would not want to have to go through the time and expense of fighting a legal battle with the Russian government over ? a bureaucratic error?, you know, ? an unfortunate misunderstanding?. This is a two way street - if it?s not listed, it?s not stolen.

Surely such a list exists or could be compiled and could be maintained by a third party or organization. Our forum? OMSA? The Russian Government? If they have the time and resources to pursue such cases, surely they could maintain such a database.

Just some thoughts.

Wild Card

[Gerd Becker]

Wild Card,

i agree completely. Noone would be better to detect stolen pieces, like us collectors, if you give us a list with the serialnumbers of these.

Gerd

[Ed_Haynes]

In my main field (British etc. medals), there has been great success in using the OMRS and OMSA to publicise lists of stolen medals (as all are named) and there has been a good success rate in recovering stolen medals. This has gained some respectability for our "hobby" in the UK at least.

I cannot but imagine that an effort to list, identify, and return legitimately stolen (is that an oxymoron?) medals would be a good thing, but some -- some of us and some in Russia -- might not like the outcome.

Isn't anything high and undocumented at least suspect? The sort of "leakage" that was obvious when I visited the Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War and, to a lesser extent, the Central Museum of the Armed Forces made this abundantly clear. What is the state of provincial military museum? Empty, I expect, all sold off, and far far away. When the entire contents of the Musuem of Cosmonautics can be sold (both domestically and internationally), why should these small baubles be any exception.

While I wish the Russians luck in recovering stolen heritage, I look at the example of the Greeks and the Elgin Marbles and the Indians and the Koh-i-Noor and doubt I'll hold my breath for them to succeed.

And I am not sure that ODM are the place to start. In any case, Tsar Putin and his minions will have more pressing matters to worry about, I suspect.