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    Gentlemen,

    I would like to verify a Saxon Oberst named F?rstenau or F?rstmann (can not quite make out the signature).

    He was a recipient of the Komthurkreuz des Kgl. S?chsischen Milit?r St.Heinrich Ordens and the Albrechts-Orden (Officer's Cross with Swords).

    What was his full and correct name, his military career and command.

    Regards, Hardy

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    Hello Daniel

    yes, we are talking about the same thing. I noticed it 8 min. before the end of the auction, put a bid on it and I got it.

    I know that he was the Kommandeur of the RIR102, but thats about it, if you have any info on him I would really appreciate it.

    Gruss aus Kanada, Hardy

    Of course, as soon as I get it I will post some nice scans.

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    If I may bother you,

    I see quite often ranks with;

    Char.

    z D.

    a D.

    What do these abbreviations denote???

    Kind regards and thanks in advance,

    Jacky

    I believe Char. means a character promotion, they hold they rank by a special appointment as a reward for service. a D. stands for au?er Dienst, which means retired. I'm a little bit fuzzy on z D., but I know it stands for zur Disposition, which I think means someone who is sort of retired, but is still eligible to be called up for military duty.

    As I said, I'm a bit fuzzy on all this, so I could be totally off!!! :rolleyes:

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    Guest Rick Research

    charakterisiert was indeed a brevet "bump up"-- usually OUT, on retirement, but not unknown on active duty around 1900 as a seniority cheat. So it depends on the time and the usage. Anybody "char. (Rank) aD" was a grade up on retirement.

    aD for ausser Dienst was retired BUT :shame::P during the FIRST World War, officers who had been retired and were called back up were still referred to as "Major aD" just as if they were retired, even if on frontline duty. The same type officer was "zV" (zur Verf?gung) in the SECOND World War.

    zD for zur Disposition in the IMPERIAL period was BOTH a category of semi-retired officers in dead end positions like a Bezirkskommando or Landwehrbezirk (basically the local draft office director in peacetime, that sort of thing) orrrrrrr

    you guessed it

    was pretty much also a euphemism for retired SENIOR officers who were actually "aD" but apprently got to travel now and then on "official inspections" and that sort of thing. Seems to have been more common for Generals before 1914 than aD-- probably a pension dodge, too.

    Under the Third Reich, zD officers were the semi-retired dead-ender types before the war.

    In the Imperial period, there were physical differences in the rank insignia of aD and zD officers, but nothing to distinguish a "char." type. In the 1930s, these officers wore a little Sergeant-type strip of braid fore and aft under the centers of their shoulder boards to indicate semi-retired and retired status.

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    In the Imperial period, there were physical differences in the rank insignia of aD and zD officers, but nothing to distinguish a "char." type.

    Rick,

    I'd love to see a photo of what those differences were. When I was in high school I had a friend who's father had "liberated" a rather extensive set of color sheets during WW2 that were about 8 x 13 inches. The first 15 or 20 had color drawings of officers in the new field grey parade dress uniforms (is that the friedensrock??), then there were pages and pages that showed all of the details of each regiment's particular colors trim, shoulder straps, etc. and on the officer's shoulder straps I seem to recall that aD officers had a rather broad black stripe going through their braid and zD had even more black in their shoulder straps. Again, I'm relying on memory from 39 years ago, but I seem to recall the generals aD had black stripes mixed in their silver middle stripe of their shoulder strap braid and zD had a solid black stripe that replaced the silver stripe in the braid.

    Edited by Mike Dwyer
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    Hallo Mike, is that what you meant?

    Reichswehr Uniformen, Brockhaus 1923

    Abzeichen f?r Verabschiedete mit Erlaubnis zum tragen der Uniform (Boards for retired officers with permission to wear the Uniform)

    aD.jpg

    Edited by Naxos
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    Mike,

    I'd love to see a photo of what those differences were

    The pre war insignia took the form of the epaulette bridles which in the case of z.D. officers had three stripes in the state colour and those for a.D. types, a ziz-zag pattern. With the abolition of the epaulette for the new 1915 "Friedensuniform", the difference was in the shoulder boards. A couple of points: z.D. officers in established posts such as Bezirkskommandeure, Bezirksoffiziere etc wore the normal "active" insignia. The 1915 special z.D and a.D. boards were only worn on the "Friedensuniform".

    Here are the 1915 pattern from "Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs-und Friedens-Uniform".

    Regards

    Glenn

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    Hallo Mike, is that what you meant?

    Reichswehr Uniformen, Brockhaus 1923

    Abzeichen f?r Verabschiedete mit Erlaubnis zum tragen der Uniform (Boards for retired officers with permission to wear the Uniform)

    Thanks, Naxos, for your reply. Actually the ones I was thinking about are the ones Glenn J posted in post # 11 just after yours. :)

    Edited by Mike Dwyer
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    Mike,

    The pre war insignia took the form of the epaulette bridles which in the case of z.D. officers had three stripes in the state colour and those for a.D. types, a ziz-zag pattern. With the abolition of the epaulette for the new 1915 "Friedensuniform", the difference was in the shoulder boards. A couple of points: z.D. officers in established posts such as Bezirkskommandeure, Bezirksoffiziere etc wore the normal "active" insignia. The 1915 special z.D and a.D. boards were only worn on the "Friedensuniform".

    Here are the 1915 pattern from "Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs-und Friedens-Uniform".

    Regards

    Glenn

    Thanks, Glenn! This is the color plate I believe my high school friend had, or at least one very much like it.

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    • 2 weeks later...

    Thanks Doc,

    the Best is that on the back of the Photograph is a dedication by Colonel F?rstenau himself to an Army Surgeon:

    " To my dear Oberstabsarzt Dr. Wuskert in remembrance of the War-years spent together, with thankfull recognition

    In the field, October 18 F?rstenau, Oberst"

    I wonder if it is the same surgeon that amputated his arm?

    :cheers: Hardy

    File0094.jpg

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    Guest Rick Research

    Evil Ricky-- YOU had an indooors photo of him-- I remember the empty sleeve. Can you find the scan?

    The ribbon bar appears to be an outdated one worn after two of the pinbacks superceded the awards on there.

    The scan Daniel posted from Erhard Roth's work on Saxon officers shows the award dates--

    1) H-R (StH-R) 2) VR1X (SV3aX) 3) 1914 EK2 (no date) 4) AR1 (SA3a), 5) DAK (Saxon XXV) 6) what appears to be an ungazetted Prussian Hohenzollern House Order 3X 7) WK RmLX (WK3XmL)

    I can also add from the unpublished rolls that he received a Saxe-Weimar Order of the White Falcon-Commander X (SWF2bX) as the first Saxon recipient in 1916's award list.

    The dedication was actually to recalled out of retirement reserve Saxon medical officer Oberstabsarzt dR aD Dr. Max W?rkert (born 31.1.1869) who was himself a St Henry Order Knight and served in the same Brigade as F?rstenau.

    Perhaps Dr W was the one who amputated his arm! :speechless1:

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