Soviet Order of Stalin

[Bryan]

This will be auctionned on Thursday, January 11, 2007 in New York!

http://www.russian-medals.net/pics/NYSale16.pdf

[hunyadi]

a fantastic piece - but where to get the money...

[usairforce]

Great order!!

[Riley1965]

If I only had the money... It's a beautiful piece

Doc

[Bryan]

The 50,000$ is just the estimated price. Who knows, it might sell over that price!

[Ed_Haynes]

The 50,000$ is just the estimated price. Who knows, it might sell over that price!

Oh, if enough people think it is legitimate, I suspect it will. (And if the Russian government doesn't intervene?)

Anyone care to guess? $125K is my estimate.

[gor]

It's not order, just prototype,may be original(who knows?),one from many... and overpriced. I think it will not be sold

[NavyFCO]

It's not order, just prototype,may be original(who knows?),one from many... and overpriced. I think it will not be sold

I'm with gor... someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are several of these out on the collectors market. Also, not to degrade Kutsenko (as he seems pretty right on to me) but I don't put much money into a story where it "might" have been the one shown to Stalin. "Might" and "maybe" are nice, but they aren't (unfortunately) real provenance.

The price will all depend on what oligarchs get in on bidding on it. For my money, I'd rather buy the single Sword of Stalingrad that's on the market, as that has been offered for quite a while now (surprisingly) at less than the estimate of this order.

Dave

[JimZ]

Prototype possible and if so out of some museum I would dare say! Durov's book shows similar one (with no serial number) in Goznak Museum.

But hey.... this particular one was shown to Stalin no??? Guess yet again it is a case of buying the piece and not the story! And yes, the piece without the story is worth....exactly how much??!!

Rarity maybe....but importance??!!!

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

Prototype possible and if so out of some museum I would dare say! Durov's book shows similar one (with no serial number) in Goznak Museum.

But hey.... this particular one was shown to Stalin no??? Guess yet again it is a case of buying the piece and not the story! And yes, the piece without the story is worth....exactly how much??!!

Rarity maybe....but importance??!!!

Jim

Importance? To the history of the erstwhile Soviet honors system: Tremendous.

But I still think some person from the Old Country with lots of cash and no interest in history will buy it and I stand by my price estimate. If nothing else, note who is selling it! And who else has one?!

[gor]

Well made fakes of this order are existing

[NavyFCO]

If nothing else, note who is selling it!

If there's one thing about this auction that would make the buyer with common sense AND money run quickly...in the opposite direction...and NOT look back...would be just that person.

[Bryan]

If there's one thing about this auction that would make the buyer with common sense AND money run quickly...in the opposite direction...and NOT look back...would be just that person.

So do you think that the robbery that occured to him was all made up! (Insurance)

[Christian Zulus]

For my money, I'd rather buy the single Sword of Stalingrad that's on the market, as that has been offered for quite a while now (surprisingly) at less than the estimate of this order.

Dave

Dear Dave,

the mentioned "Sword of Stalingrad" is only a copy:

http://www.russianswords.com/Stalin-english.htm

The authentic one has not be stolen from the museum .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: The authentic "Sword of Stalingrad" would be at the market in a similar price region as a "Order of Victory", the genuine "Victory-Flag" or the corps of the mumified Lenin - if these "collectibles" will ever come at the market . Years ago, in the 1990s, some Russian officials were thinking about selling the dead Lenin .

Edited January 12, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[hhbooker2]

"GREETINGS & SALUTATIONS!" One could probably have a die made of the Order of Stalin and make copies marked as such for re-enactors? Looks sort of like the U.S. LEGION OF MERIT breast star, doesn't it? Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California

[Ed_Haynes]

Looks sort of like the U.S. LEGION OF MERIT breast star, doesn't it?

Not much.

[JimZ]

Importance? To the history of the erstwhile Soviet honors system: Tremendous.

Yes and no.... it never made it into the Soviet honours system did it? So from a historical point of view it may be indeed very interesting but speaking as a collector of awarded medals I beg to differ. Of course I am not saying its not a pretty piece - but still of no major importance to me. Now id the project for the order of Stalin did take off and was awarded that would in my opinion put this 'prototype' in a different league. By all means.... its entirely my view!

How one can authenticate something that has never been issued is somehow beyond me.

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

I'd suggest we learn more about the way the system worked by seeing what was proposed and rejected that by seeing what was given out.

But, then, my interests as a professional historian (not specialising in the USSR, otherwise I'd know Russian!) transcend the mere collection of "things" and of the fascinating stories beinnd them.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[order_of_victory]

How one can authenticate something that has never been issued is somehow beyond me.

That was my thought exactly, if I am spending more that 1,000 usd on an item I want to know it is a hundred percent authenticated

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

does anyone have the result of the auction ?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

[Gerd Becker]

What strikes me as odd is the total unusual construction for such a soviet screwback award (look Order of Nakhimov, Suvorov....).

Gerd

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

does anyone have the result of the auction ?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

Yes, I was at the auction. I am sorry to say that I did not write down the hammer price on the Stalin Order;

but as I recall, there were a couple of bidders on this item and it went for just over $60,000.

While I am not an Imerial Russian collector, I was quite shocked by the prices on quite a number of items

in terms of multiples of the estimates. It was a very interesting evening.

Regards,

Wild Card

[hhbooker2]

It went for just over $60,000. While I am not an Imperial Russian collector, I was quite shocked by the prices on quite a number of items in terms of multiples of the estimates. It was a very interesting evening. Regards, Wild Card

"GREETINGS & SALUTATIONS!" WILD CARD: Ever get the feeling some bidders known nothing or care about the things they bidm on are flipping the item in question and just speculating? Some people just have lots of money to throw around, like sports "heroes" who are paid millions or CEOs, etc.? "A fool and their money soon part!" goes the old proverb! Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California

[Wild Card]

Such behavior was evident, at times, at this auction - especially by one ?telephone? bidder in particular. I have seen it also at the last few Thies (Imperial German) auctions.

At the risk of injuring or offending national sensitivities, I will say only that the same ?group? (they are neither sports heroes nor ceo?s) that has totally screwed up the art market has found our areas of collecting interest; and, as you probably know, money is no object. One can only hope that sooner rather than later something else will attract their interest. I would like to suggest old comic books. Little reading and lots of pictures - should suit them well.

[hhbooker2]

Sooner rather than later something else will attract their interest.

"GREETINGS & SALUTATIONS!" In 1958 when I went to Manhatan (New York City) there were still availble to collectors suits of armour, swords, shields, etc., but outfits like Robert Abels helped increase the prices so much that only museums and very rich armour collectors ended up conering the market and most was speculation. In 1967 in Chicago, Illinois comic books took off when someone forced the seeting of a price on the first issue of SUPERMAN! Comic books and spprts cards sky-rocketed! At one time you could buy original artwork used for science fiction magazine covers and I heard in the 1940s the original artwork from the 1900s to 1930s was taking off. You could also buy an 321 original painting by Norman Rockwell (1894-1978), but recently one of them sold for about US$240,000.00 or more? Nothing is sacred or safe! I used to give away my original pen and ink drawings of insignia that were in issues of the American Society of Military Insignia Collectors' Trading Post magazine, then I gave many away and a few years ago I saw some being sold by collectors and had no idea anyone would pay for them - many were insignia I drew 400% larger than actual size - I still have a lot left to give away, not sell! I drew lots of illustrations of French and British Medals, cap badges, etc. People actually frame one-of-a-kind drawings, posters, etc., even back covers from old Nayional Georgraphic Magazine sell for more than the magazines themselves - who knows what is next? Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California