Pour le Merite

[Rod]

I am a very newcomer .... and I do not wish to offend

BUT Der Rittmeister has two (2) pour le Merite for sale at $15,000!!!!

I am sure you all review his website although I have consistantly heard it is an interesting place to visit BUT not to buy......

Sooooooo I am interested.... are these items worthy of seriously purchase?????

Rod

Edited January 17, 2007 by Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

Anyone who knows what they are doing and doesn't object to his prices can pick and choose from the very very good and the very very bad admixture of offerings there.

But if you do NOT know what you are doing-- and he certainly does NOT, despite the razzle dazzle and the excessive verbiage--

no.

My Imperial guru died while I was still in apprentice training, and so now I will NEVER have the slightest clue about PLMs, ever.

But then I'm not charging 15K without a clue, either.

So if 15K of YOUR money seems OK for a "guaranty" based on pfffffffffffffffffffffffffft....

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Rod:

The pieces are forgeries meant to deceive collectors in my opinion. They are not "wearing copies", etc. etc. They are garbage in my opinion and I wouldn't want them if they were given to me (a genuine 1914 EKII has more value to me!).

Save your money for now. You will need at least $25,000 for a genuine PLM if one comes up for sale on the open collector's market. There are genuine pieces out there, but most are in well-established collections. The genuine item just doesn't pop-up on Ebay.

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Wild Card]

Hi Rod,

The two posts above are from two very knowledgeable members that pretty well say it all with regard to your question. I would just like to emphasize SPM?s comment ?The genuine item just doesn't pop-up on Ebay?.

Best wishes for many years of Happy Collecting,

Wild Card

[Steve Russell]

The two offerings on Der Rittmeister's site appear to be Rothe-style fakes. The mini on the top offering is a Spanish-style fake and the most common fake mini out there. I have to say that the crowned-headed mini on the second offering could be legit. Hard to say. While orginal pre-WWI Rothe's are known to pop up, the enamel work on the top piece is very, very poor. The bottom piece looks more like the modern Rothe style copies. It is very good workmanship and the enamel is much better. Might have been a legit modern-made Rothe piece but it is still a copy akin to the Souval TR awards made decades after the war. As a general rule, the 'fishbone' style tail feathers on the eagles usually keep the serious PlM collector away. Steve

[kyokashinkai]

...wondered if this are legit pre 1939 pieces...

i could cope with an interwar private purchase,dont and cant justify $25000 on a wartime one ... but do not want post 1945 "ebay" type junk !!

opinions or advise please .

thanks

kyokashinkai.

1/ Pour Le Merite (Blue Max) with crown, superb early post war quality silver gilt, loop suspension stamped J.G 938 (Godet)

Edited January 26, 2007 by kyokashinkai

[kyokashinkai]

2/Pour Le Merite (Blue Max), superb early post war quality silver, suspension stamped W ( Wagner) ......real or fake ????

[kyokashinkai]

3/Pour Le Merite (Blue Max), excellent quality single sided bronze gilt light blue enamel, reverse engraved ...real or fake ??

Edited January 26, 2007 by kyokashinkai

[medalnet]

First two are Rothe fakes, the one below is something else. A reverse picture would help.

[kyokashinkai]

..thanks !! ..picture of the single sided posted on new thread

many thanks

kyokashinkai

Edited January 26, 2007 by kyokashinkai

[jonightflyer]

Very interesting thread... could you guys comment on this one. (Sorry if it has been covered previously).

German States

PRUSSIA, Pour-le-Merite

Cross in GOLD and enamels, hollow version, 1916-18. Very good details and quality, unmarked. Mounted on a full length of original neck ribbon. Enamels without any imperfections, in extremely fine condition. Excellent condition and quality, rare. (Sold with expertise of authenticity, D. Niemann).

Another forum has suggested that it is a genuine Wagner but why no mark and weren't the genuine gold pieces all pie slice suspensions?

[Ralph A]

This last one is beautiful. Looks like someone invented a time machine and went back to the jeweler's....

Lovely.

[Deruelle]

It is possible to make some close up please. Thanks

Regards

Christophe

[jonightflyer]

It is possible to make some close up please. Thanks Christophe

[dond]

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.

[jonightflyer]

This last one is beautiful. Lovely.

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.

Beautiful yes.... but could the experts give an opinion on whether it is genuine?

[Deruelle]

I have a doubt. Each time we see the line between letter U and R, the medal is a fake. Some members here which have an original Pour le M?rite may confirm that. Do you have the weight and size of this medal ? I'm waiting for other answers

Regards

Christophe

[Tim Tezer]

I have a doubt. Each time we see the line between letter U and R, the medal is a fake. Some members here which have an original Pour le M?rite may confirm that. Do you have the weight and size of this medal ? I'm waiting for other answers

Regards

Christophe

Too bad it's not that simple. The gold badge awarded to Oblt. Berthold in WW1, which is pictured in both David Edkins' "The Prussian Orden Pour le Merite" (on the cover), and Neal O'Connor's Vol. II of "Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany" (on the inside front cover) has the U and R connected. It is, as far as we know, Berthold's awarded badge, and evidently the one he was wearing at the time of his death. The S&L copies made in the 1950s and 60s also had this feature, but the eagles were extremely crude and can be easily distinguished from the originals.

Tim

[Les]

Too bad it's not that simple. The gold badge awarded to Oblt. Berthold in WW1, which is pictured in both David Edkins' "The Prussian Orden Pour le Merite" (on the cover), and Neal O'Connor's Vol. II of "Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany" (on the inside front cover) has the U and R connected. It is, as far as we know, Berthold's awarded badge, and evidently the one he was wearing at the time of his death. The S&L copies made in the 1950s and 60s also had this feature, but the eagles were extremely crude and can be easily distinguished from the originals.

Tim

J'ai concur avec Tim.

The matter of connected letters and the "serifs" on the letters are an aspect of how the dies were made so they could be used for forming the medal blanks. Once the medal blank was made, the connected letters were tidied up and seperated. Berthold's ( a gold example) example is one that did not have the letters seperated after the medal was formed. There is at least one silver gilt example that I know of that has connected letters. I've handled it enough and taken extensive photos of it, and it has all of the specific attributes (including some highly specific die flaws that can only have been produced from Wagner's dies) of wartime orignals.

Tim (or Marshall), for the edification of the readers, could you post a photo or two that I've sent you previously of the example with the connected letters? It's tangental to the thread, but it does show that not all examples with connected letters are obvious fakes. Many people see the letters and look no further, not realizing there are other things to look at before passing judgement.

There are plenty of later wartime silver gilt examples made by Wagner (and that includes those bearing the "Fr" ritzmarke) that it's possible to say whether an example was made by Wanger or not. There is some variation, but not all that much. What differences there are, are the result of die wear and hand-finishing.

The example being offered on the internet by "emedals" or Barry Turk, was made by Wagner using his first set of wartime dies. There are some highly specific differences between the earliest wartime hollow gold wartime PlMs, and his later silver gilt examples. The evidence points to a change in dies circa 1916, that took place independantly of the change over from pieces with the "pie wedge" to baroque suspension loop.

There are a -very- small number of hollow gold examples with the baroque suspension loop. If I had to guess at how many of these were made, I'd estimate perhaps 10-15 were made that have the features this particular example has. Consequently, comparing it to others is not all that easy given the relatively small number of pieces made by Wagner at that specific period of the war (late 1915?).

Is this one real? It compares favorably to some of the very few hollow gold Wagners I've been able to make comparisons to it. I haven't actually handled this one, and going on photos alone can sometimes be a risky proposition. It does look good though.

Les

Les

[Deruelle]

Many thanks Tim and les for your informations. i'm still learning on Pour le M?rite medal.

Regards

Christophe

[Tim Tezer]

Here is a shot of the silver-gilt PLM with connected letters that Les refers to:

The detail on this example is pretty stunning. Somewhere I think I have a photo of a similar piece sold by Detlev Niemann, but I have allowed my photo collection to slip into a poor state of organization, and I can't figure out which disk it's on. I'll see if I can locate it.

Tim

[jonightflyer]

Here is a shot of the silver-gilt PLM with connected letters that Les refers to:

Here are two more with connected letters that are presumed genuine. The first attributable to Eduard Ritter von Schleich.

Thanks to Les for insightful post... but one question... shouldn't the gold piece be stamped "W".

[Biro]

...Tim (or Marshall), for the edification of the readers, could you post a photo or two that I've sent you previously of the example with the connected letters? It's tangental to the thread, but it does show that not all examples with connected letters are obvious fakes.....Les

Here is the example Les is referring to above - I have seen many detailed pictures of this piece and there is no doubt it was made on Wagners dies..

[Biro]

Here are two more with connected letters that are presumed genuine. The first attributable to Eduard Ritter von Schleich.

Joni -

The first one is a 1957 S&L so you would expect the letters 'u & r' to be connected...

Marshall

[jonightflyer]

The first one is a 1957 S&L so you would expect the letters 'u & r' to be connected...Marshall

Hi Marshall... thanks for the info... the first is claimed to be the award piece of Eduard Ritter von Schleich as per this statement from Ken Greenfield.

Quote: " The book's cover features the Orden Pour le M?rite ("Blue Max") of Hauptmann Eduard Ritter von Schleich (which remains in my collection and is one my most prized pieces) "