Martin W Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Hi Martin, . Will it be possible for you to repost your info regarding meridians (obviously they were added to the badges later by pretty steady hand - most likely conventionally) in this thread (you'll need to be registered with GCA to see original thread). Hi Nick, basically,when i finally got one of these Japanese made awards i noticed that the lines of longitude and latitude were individually engraved by hand. When i compared my badge with other examples i could see that the cuts that extended into the wreath area were different on each individual badge that featured these lines. Regards,Martin.
Martin W Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 But as time is running, there aren’t many fellows to ask unfortunately… BR, Chris Hi Chris, with the help of a friend,i am working on trying to get information here from a couple of former THOR crewmen. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Regards,Martin.
Gensui Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 Hi Martin, I cross a finger for you as well! We'll see, if there will be some enlightenment from "first sources"... BR, Chris
JSlavick Posted March 9, 2013 Posted March 9, 2013 My post is not specifically in response to the Japanese badge question, it is more about numbers and in response to Martin’s comment and question of 05 march 2013: “But I think that to earn the HK award you had to have service on one of the Raiders? I find it hard to believe that these awards were given to crewmen who served on Blockade Breakers only, but who knows ?” The official Kriegsmarine designation “Hilfskreuzer” is larger than just what we think of as the “raiders.” The auxiliary minelayer Doggerbank is an example. It was designated as a Hilfskreuzer, but it was not a “raider” per se. The raises the question were all auxiliary minelayers dispatched on foreign missions designated “Hilfskreuzer” and did crewman qualify for the Viking boat badge? I don’t have the MV/NTB handy, but I think (writing from memory here folks...) that it specifically only authorizes the Viking boat badge to crewmen of an “armed merchant cruiser.” However we have these exceptions: 1) The Doggerbank crew qualified for the HSK badge 2) The men who trans-shipped from Tannenfels and spent only one month aboard Atlantis, before departing on other unarmed prize ships were awarded the HSK badge 3) A supply ship crewman who spent three weeks aboard Kormoran before departing and was awarded the HSK badge 4) A group of sailors trans-shipped to Komet for a short time who were awarded the HSK badge 5) The crewmen of Brake who wore the HSK badge (why?) (Are there other ships in this category?) There is indeed 5% to 15+% of additional non armed merchant cruiser crewman who trans-shipped from supply ships to raiders, were added to the rolls, and then trans-shipped off again later or were assigned to prize crews.....I would argue these men probably were awarded HSK Badges. I hear a lot of Uckermark men wearing the HSK badge. True? Can someone confirm via photo? It seems to me that qualifying for the HSK badge was up to varied interpretation and may expand to others that most people don’t consider when counting totals. I really look forward to carrying on this discussion and refining what we know as a group! Joe
Martin W Posted March 10, 2013 Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) The official Kriegsmarine designation “Hilfskreuzer” is larger than just what we think of as the “raiders.” The auxiliary minelayer Doggerbank is an example. It was designated as a Hilfskreuzer, but it was not a “raider” per se. The raises the question were all auxiliary minelayers dispatched on foreign missions designated “Hilfskreuzer” and did crewman qualify for the Viking boat badge? I don’t have the MV/NTB handy, but I think (writing from memory here folks...) that it specifically only authorizes the Viking boat badge to crewmen of an “armed merchant cruiser.” However we have these exceptions: 1) The Doggerbank crew qualified for the HSK badge 2) The men who trans-shipped from Tannenfels and spent only one month aboard Atlantis, before departing on other unarmed prize ships were awarded the HSK badge 3) A supply ship crewman who spent three weeks aboard Kormoran before departing and was awarded the HSK badge 4) A group of sailors trans-shipped to Komet for a short time who were awarded the HSK badge 5) The crewmen of Brake who wore the HSK badge (why?) (Are there other ships in this category?) There is indeed 5% to 15+% of additional non armed merchant cruiser crewman who trans-shipped from supply ships to raiders, were added to the rolls, and then trans-shipped off again later or were assigned to prize crews.....I would argue these men probably were awarded HSK Badges. I hear a lot of Uckermark men wearing the HSK badge. True? Can someone confirm via photo? It seems to me that qualifying for the HSK badge was up to varied interpretation and may expand to others that most people don’t consider when counting totals. I really look forward to carrying on this discussion and refining what we know as a group! Joe Thanks for this fascinating information Joe. The Brake was a supply tanker of 9925 tons.The Charlotte Schliemann was another tanker and from what i recall on an old WAF thread,collector Monsun had a Japanese badge from a crewman who served on the Uckermark and the Charlotte Schliemann ? Regards,Martin. Edited March 10, 2013 by Martin W
JapanX Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Why the "sterling" stamp exists, I do not know nor do I think it is that important since the badge itself has provenance with the mark. It exists for some reason that made perfect sense then and little sense now. Amen to that. http://militaria-zeitschrift.de/vorsicht-falschung-5549.htm Amen to that!
Norm F Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Hm. I can't read that article without spending a couple of days with a dictionary and using Google translate doesn't make much sense out of it, but for what it's worth the "tone" of the Google translation seemed highly sarcastic? Perhaps Nick or someone else can paraphrase it for us? Best regards, ---Norm
John R Posted March 11, 2013 Author Posted March 11, 2013 I agree Norm. If JapanX would explain his point, it would help a bit I think. John
Martin W Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 It seems to relate to a reproduction of the "sterling" badge and it involves Sascha Weber. I beleive we dicussed this "sterling repro" at WAF some months ago,but i cannot find the thread there. Regards,Martin.
Martin W Posted March 12, 2013 Posted March 12, 2013 I beleive we dicussed this "sterling repro" at WAF some months ago,but i cannot find the thread there. With help,i am posting the WAF thread here to continue the discussion in regards to the "fake sterling badges". I hope this is OK. Regards,Martin. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=614877&highlight=Aux+Cruiser+sterling+silver
Gensui Posted March 12, 2013 Posted March 12, 2013 Ok guys, I’ll give it a try. Please don’t count my mistakes – if you find them, keep smiling “Beware of fake? To underline in the beginning: the following points are not a statement on the issue, fake or not? There was an article in the last edition of the [German magazine] Orden und Ehrenzeichen (“OuE”) about a supposedly fake of an aux badge. Sascha Weber was asked to prepare an expertise for a Japanese made badge with the STERLING mark. In the opinion of various experts and confirmation of an owner of three of these awards Sascha Weber was sure about the authenticity of this badge. Because an auction house had doubts about the authenticity of this badge, Sasach immediately revised his positive assessment. An Institute for Materials Testing noted, that this badge was made out of copper (contains 83.47%) and NOT out of sterling (which needs to contain min. 92.5% silver). Weber said that the old term Sterling means only, that a piece should be made of silver with 925 parts per 1000. According to the German law of fineness of the gold and silver product, Japanese sterling silver hallmark. The article completely ignored the fact, , that – due to the change of the metric system in Japan - from the late 1920s until mid-1950s any pieces were hallmarked with STERLING 950 and not/rarely with 925. […] It is nonsense to believe, that a hallmark/stamp guarantees the contents of 92.5% silver. Weber exclusively argued with the alleged truth of the hallmark of if the badge is an authentic of faked piece. According to the materials analysis this badge consists mainly of copper and have only 2.15% silver. Nor Sascha Weber or anybody else have done any checking/proofing, if the Japanese made aux badge really contains/was made with/out of 925/1000 silver. And we even don’t know, if the Japanese-made aux badge were actually made from 925/1000 silver. Without any proof, Webers arguments are valueless. The article or expertise not even met the formal requirements of such work. Weber finished with realising , “Learning from mistakes”. But the author [of this article] has doubts about Weber’s ability to learn from any mistakes, as shown in Weber’s book about the Kriegsmarine awards. Weber alleged an argument that the war badges with diamonds are made from ferrous metal and not in silver.“ BR and thanks for smiling all the time In haste, Chris
JapanX Posted March 12, 2013 Posted March 12, 2013 Very "diplomatic" translation Chris! I wonder where from this info came The article completely ignored the fact, , that – due to the change of the metric system in Japan - from the late 1920s until mid-1950s any pieces were hallmarked with STERLING 950 and not/rarely with 925. Guess from the same internet source... :whistle:
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