new bar - allien combo

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Here is a bar that i am expecting to land within the next few days => but as you are so nice i would like to present it already towards you guys.

This bar does contain:

* EK 2 (Prussia)

* White falcon 2 nd class with swords (Sachsen-Weimar)

* FF Cross 2 nd. class (Mecklenburg)

* Hanseatenkreuz (Hamburg)

* Hindenburgcross

And offcoarse there is no name to go with it, the white falcon for example is a very ncie example and does absolutely have no enamel damage of any kind.

This combo is a very weird one, and now my (impossible) quest to find the man behind this bar has begun

All comments, reactions etc .. .are welcome.

Cordial greetings

Edited August 25, 2007 by Stijn David

[Stijn David]

Hello,

And then after browsing through the net and some old threads on the white falocn this picture (courtesy Stogieman) popped up.

Could this have been the wearer? or am i just crazy and is this a large coincidence?

Cordial greetings,

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Very nice medal bar. You have to wait for the Rick's books. May be Stogie has got the name of the officer.

Regards

Christophe

[Ulsterman]

OK-what is that man-SA/Luftwaffe in @1933?

[Scott]

He's in the DLV - precursor to the Luftwaffe (1933-1935). Looks like a nice match to your bar.

Scott

[Stijn David]

Hello,

I have received the bar today and i must say that it is a real beauty and i have noticed something else.

Iff you look at the picture (courtesy Stogie) then we can notice that teh EK 2 is worn in the wrong way, thanks to that we do see that the oak meaves and the crown on that EK are very pronounced. I hope that the current owner (Stogie?) can show a close up on the bar.)

I have looked at the bar, nw the EK 2 is correctly mounted but iff we flip that EK the oakleaves and crown are exactly as pronounced as in the picture. It is a long shot offcoarse but Rick L. did say alreayd it is a very weird combination. The bar is not exactly teh same as the EK 2 is mounted otherwis and teh Hindenburgcross is also now in its place.

I do think however that the bar i have did belong towards the unkown person in the picture, only the bar has been remounted after that picture is taken => reason: because the Hindenburg has been awarded and teh EK has now been correctly placed.

So now this person needs to be indentifyed offcoarse, who was he?

Does anyone have a clue what producer (Hindenburgcross) was behind the mark GD or DG ?

@ towards this question i have found the answer already: GD = Gustav Danner / M?hlhausen

Cordial greetings,

Edited August 27, 2007 by Stijn David

[David M]

Hi Stijn

As I spot a Fliegerabzeichen when I am correct, you might try his photo at

www.theaerodrome.com

Furthermore, should he have been a Seeflieger/Marineflieger, I know a guy who might be able to help you with his careerdata at least for the WWI forum. Furthermore, should he made a career during WWII subsequently ( dont think so, as he does not seem to have any WWII medals) you might get the rest of his career at the WAST in Berlin

Hope you find this info of some use.

regards, good luck and keep us posted here!!

David

[Stijn David]

Hello David,

Thank you for this additional information and usefull links. Always worth a try

I keep hoping that this bar and person in the picture will get a name once again.

Cordial greetings,

ps: Stogie => could you please contact me about this picture?

[webr55]

Has someone checked whether he is one of the 23 White Falcon aviation recipients listed by Neal O'Connor?

[Stijn David]

Hello,

I started a thread on the mentioned Flyers as per Neil W.O.Connor : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21079

However not much reply's

Im hoping that someone will take up the gauntlet and check out the remaining flyers iff there could be a match.

Cordial greetings,

[Guest Rick Research]

That photo is looooooooooooooooooooooong gone.

He is wearing an army Observers badge. But remember that many officers transferred to aviation from other branches, and so often their awards were earned in ground forces not in the air. Neal ONLY really tracked awards to flyers, so he would not have noted a non-famous name when he looked through lists-- which he often did live, on the spot, writing down aviation recipients.

I could never get him to list all award recipients ALPHABETICALLY rather than CHRONOLOGICALLY... which means looking through the entire war for one name rather than just going to it.

[Stijn David]

Hello,

And here are the flyers as mentioned with O' Connor:

The following name scome into vieuw (source: Neil W.O.Connor)

* Appel (von) - Olt.

* B?low (Freiherr von), Hilmer - Hptm.

* Crienitz - Hptm.

* Edler, Alfred - Olt. z. See

* Engel, Hans - Lt.

* Fraunberg (Freiherr von und zu), Hans - Lt.

* Freytag, Georg - Hptm.

* Goltz (von der) - Lt.

* Haeseler (von), Kurt - Lt.

* Hagen (von dem), Oswald - Hptm.

* H?ussler, Willi - Lt.

* Heyden (von), Helmuth - Lt.

* Ihn, Max - Olt.

* Jacobs, Josef - Lt.

* Mardersteig, Georg - Hptm.

* Neumann - Hptm.

* Peters, Emil - Olt.

* Pfeiffer, Leo - Hptm.

* Plagemann - Lt.

* Wencher, Konrad - Lt.

* Werder (von), Claus - Hptm.

* Wolff, Joachim - Lt.

* Wolff, Jakob - Lt.

And the following 4 officers can already be exclude from the list:

* Jacobs, Josef - Lt.

=> has won the 'Pour Le Merite', so not the person i am seraching.

* Wolff, Joachim - Lt.

=> was KIA on 16.05.1918

* Wolff, Jakob - Lt.

He had 4 claims but was wounded during 1917 while acting with Jasta 17 + never returned again towards a frontline unit. He died 04.12.1926. (Therefore he could not have been a DLV member - as the DLV was first grounded 1933)

* B?low (Freiherr von), Hilmer - Hptm.

=> He did get the HOHX + was later a General / no long service awards etc .... , so no match on this one.

Cordial greetings,

[Stijn David]

Hello,

And here is the reverse of that bar.

Hi Rick, indeed, most probably a Army officer but always worth a search on the flyers listed with O'COnnor => iff i only had the references, etc ....

Cordial greetings,

[David M]

As most of the men you listed are noble, you can track them down in the Gotha and see if they were alive at all during the DLV periode.

David

[webr55]

More who got the HHOX:

Oswald von dem Hagen

Leo Pfeifer

Willi H?ussler

Alfred Edler is listed in the Navy RL 1918 with only an EK1 and GSF3bX, so unlikely - but not impossible - that he got both Hamburg and Mecklenburg.

[Stijn David]

Hello Webr55,

Thank you for the extra information, so at this point we can already exclude 7 names from the O' Connor list:

* Appel (von) - Olt. => remark : this person is most probably : Karl von Apell / Olt.

* B?low (Freiherr von), Hilmer - Hptm.

* Crienitz - Hptm.

* Edler, Alfred - Olt. z. See

* Engel, Hans - Lt.

* Fraunberg (Freiherr von und zu), Hans - Lt.

* Freytag, Georg - Hptm.

* Goltz (von der) - Lt.

* Haeseler (von), Kurt - Lt.

* Hagen (von dem), Oswald - Hptm.

* H?ussler, Willi - Lt.

* Heyden (von), Helmuth - Lt.

* Ihn, Max - Olt.

* Jacobs, Josef - Lt.

* Mardersteig, Georg - Hptm.

* Neumann - Hptm.

* Peters, Emil - Olt.

* Pfeiffer, Leo - Hptm.

* Plagemann - Lt.

* Wencher, Konrad - Lt.

* Werder (von), Claus - Hptm.

* Wolff, Joachim - Lt.

* Wolff, Jakob - Lt.

And the following 4 officers can already be exclude from the list:

1) Jacobs, Josef - Lt.

=> has won the 'Pour Le Merite', so not the person i am seraching.

2) Wolff, Joachim - Lt.

=> was KIA on 16.05.1918

3) Wolff, Jakob - Lt.

He had 4 claims but was wounded during 1917 while acting with Jasta 17 + never returned again towards a frontline unit. He died 04.12.1926. (Therefore he could not have been a DLV member - as the DLV was first grounded 1933)

4) B?low (Freiherr von), Hilmer - Hptm.

=> He did get the HOHX + was later a General / no long service awards etc .... , so no match on this one

5,6 & 7) Oswald von dem Hagen, Leo Pfeifer, Willi H?ussler

They all got a HOHX, so also no matches.

8) Edler, Alfred

=> also most probably no match, further confirmation needed.

So still 16 to check :

* Appel (von) - Olt. => remark : this person is most probably : Karl von Apell /.

* B?low (Freiherr von), Hilmer - Hptm.

* Crienitz - Hptm.

* Engel, Hans - Lt.

* Fraunberg (Freiherr von und zu), Hans - Lt.

* Freytag, Georg - Hptm.

* Goltz (von der) - Lt.

* Haeseler (von), Kurt - Lt.

* Hagen (von dem), Oswald - Hptm.

* Heyden (von), Helmuth - Lt.

* Ihn, Max - Olt.

* Mardersteig, Georg - Hptm.

* Neumann - Hptm.

* Peters, Emil - Olt.

* Plagemann - Lt.

* Wencher, Konrad - Lt.

* Werder (von), Claus - Hptm.

I have also been bussy and searching, iff the mentioned von Appel from O'Connor is indeed Karl von Apell then he is also not the searched person.

Reason for this: Karl von Apell was a pilot (and not a observer) who did get his pilotslicence nr. 266 with teh date of 06.06.1912.

Anyone able to confirm this?

Thanks for the efforts,

Edited August 29, 2007 by Stijn David

[webr55]

Discount Mardersteig, he was a reserve Hptm and had a number of other awards, including an LD1.

[Stijn David]

Hello,

We can rule out anotehr one, namely Konrad Wencher

He was KIA during 1915 when his plane crashed.

Still 14 to go.

Cordial greetings,

[webr55]

It's not Hilmer Freiherr von Bülow, he was a Luftwaffe GenLt and had the HHOX.

Edited November 13, 2017 by webr55

[webr55]

Scratch Georg Freytag, he was Hptm in FAR11 and had a PrKO4X in 1914.

[paddywhack]

this must be so so annoying!!!! seeing the bar you own on its owner and not being able to ID him as of yet!!! great bar and hopefully you will get an ID !love these type of IDing threads!!!

[Stijn David]

Hello Paddy,

Absolutely correct => it is the terrible thing and i am such a novice with these things

Here are the remaining names (iff we follow the correct trace)

* Appel (von) - Olt. => remark : this person is most probably : Karl von Apell /.

* Crienitz - Hptm.

* Engel, Hans - Lt.

* Fraunberg (Freiherr von und zu), Hans - Lt.

* Goltz (von der) - Lt.

* Haeseler (von), Kurt - Lt.

* Hagen (von dem), Oswald - Hptm.

* Heyden (von), Helmuth - Lt.

* Ihn, Max - Olt.

* Neumann - Hptm.

* Peters, Emil - Olt.

* Plagemann - Lt.

* Werder (von), Claus - Hptm.

The list is getting smaller but still not there => the one thin i need now is that the Mecklenburg/Hamburg rolls would be available. Then these names could be checked and most probably this person would become his name again.

But never say never, i am certain we wll know his name, etc ... => even iff it takes many more years.

Cordial greetings

[webr55]

It's definitely not Karl von Apell. He was originally in FAR 83, and, according to the RL 1914, "kommandiert zum Flieger-Bat. Nr. 3". He already had a PrKO4, SLH4 and WF3b by then.

[Stijn David]

Hello,

Thank you once again => scratch von Appel, then we still have 12 persons remaining. It is narrowing down

Cordial greetings,

[webr55]

Crienitz was Olt in IR 87. No awards by 1914, but the Ehrenrangliste shows him as Major aD who had been on the General Staff of the 1. Marine-Division. Not sure what to make of this, but Mecklenburg and Hamburg - those were typical Navy awards...