Soviet What is this ?

[militalian]

Dear Collectors Friends,

I've find this badge in an veteran Italian WW2 Cavalry officer's home.

This officer , fought in Russian Campaign.

I have find in this home others important italian items.

The "russian badge ? " have an engraved number ( 2449 ) , I'm sorry but collect only italian items and not have notices of foreign items.

Forgive me for my poor english and I hope to obtain notices of this badge.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Rome.

Militalian

Russian badge

Reverse Russian Badge

[JBFloyd]

Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky.

[militalian]

She his an important order ?

The engraved number it is important for notices ?

Thanks , take care and greetings from Rome.

Militalian

[Christian Zulus]

Order of Bogdan Khmelnitsky.

Dear Militalian,

it's the 3rd class of the SOVIET order - a rather rare, important, high-ranking and expensive item (if it is genuine & authentic):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Bogdan_Khmelnitsky

http://www.medals.org.uk/russia/ussr/ussr011.htm

With the engraved serial number, you can have the order researched and find the (old) owner of that award + a lot of datas about his career and biography. Have a look at that section of GMIC: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showforum=106

Did the Italian cavalry officer fight on the Soviet side of the Eastern Front - or on the Nazi side (and stole that order from an Red Army soldier) ?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Do you have better scans of the order, to make out the type (there are 2 differnt types) ?

Edited October 22, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Kev in Deva]

(and stole that order from an Red Army soldier) unsure.gif ?

Dear Christian,

And without any evidence to prove otherwise, such a statement as above is meaningless,

I think it is well documented fact, that soldiers on all sides, in all conflicts, have managed to appropriate

each others medals, badges and insignias!!

So let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Kevin in Deva.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Kevin,

I guess, there is a bit of misunderstanding from your side .

The GMIC-member from Italiy told to us, that he knows nothing about Soviet Awards and I simply told him 2 possibilities to get Soviet Awards during the GPW at the Eastern Front - so, what's wrong .

Best regards

Christian

Dear Christian,

And without any evidence to prove otherwise, such a statement as above is meaningless,

I think it is well documented fact, that soldiers on all sides, in all conflicts, have managed to appropriate

each others medals, badges and insignias!!

So let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Kevin in Deva.

[Kev in Deva]

Dear Kevin,

I guess, there is a bit of misunderstanding from your side .

The GMIC-member from Italiy told to us, that he knows nothing about Soviet Awards and I simply told him 2 possibilities to get Soviet Awards during the GPW at the Eastern Front - so, what's wrong .

Best regards

Christian

Dear Christian,

sorry if you misunderstand what I was referring too in my post, the question you asked him was;

"Did the Italian cavalry officer fight on the Soviet side of the Eastern Front - or on the Nazi side (and stole that order from an Red Army soldier) unsure.gif ?

*My underline of your words.

Surely, after all these years, it does not matter how it was acquired, as I said in my previous post "I think it is well documented fact, that soldiers on all sides, in all conflicts, have managed to appropriate each others medals, badges and insignias!! I can not recall any one on any of the websites and forums ever bring the word "stole" into play.

The way you have phrased the question gives the indication only a Germans Italian, could do such a thing, and we all know that soldiers acquire "War Booty" regardless of what nation they are from.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Kevin,

I only wanted to tell to GMIC-member "militalia", who told to us, that he has no knowledge about Soviet awards, that it might be also possible, that the Italian cavalry officer might have got the order from an dead or captured Red Army soldier.

The fact is, that thousends of Italian officers fought in the rows of Nazi-Germany against the Soviet Union - just remember Stalingrad 1942/43 .

All nations in WW II collected foreign awards - no doubt about that fact .

Coming back to our Italian GMIC-member's question:

According to the serial number, the Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class should be a type 1 version, with 3 parts of the order.

Concerning the today's market value of a Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class, type 1, it should be well above EUR 3.000,-, I guess. If the Italian cavalry officer got that order for himself, for fighting against the Nazis, the value of the order will be higher - no doubt, if the research will proof that fact.

Best regards

Christian

Dear Christian,

sorry if you misunderstand what I was referring too in my post, the question you asked him was;

*My underline of your words.

Surely, after all these years, it does not matter how it was acquired, as I said in my previous post "I think it is well documented fact, that soldiers on all sides, in all conflicts, have managed to appropriate each others medals, badges and insignias!! I can not recall any one on any of the websites and forums ever bring the word "stole" into play.

The way you have phrased the question gives the indication only a Germans could do such a thing, and we all know that soldiers acquire "War Booty" regardless of what nation they are from.

Kevin in Deva.

[Kev in Deva]

Sorry Christian I must apologize, here I used the word "German" by mistake for Italian, I will correct it in my posts,

my point is I do not see why you needed to raise the concern that the item was "stolen" as there are a few possibilities to how

an Italian / German, etc.. etc.. could obtain it,

A, taken from a Russian Soldier,

B,found amongst abandoned equipment,

C,Found in a enemy position,

D,Given to him by a German or Russian.

Kevin in Deva.

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Kevin,

many thanks for your understanding and for giving further explainations .

Let's wait for our Italian GMIC-member, what he tells us about the history of the order and maybe he will provide better scans .

It might be a very intersting story ...

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I guess, that there are not so many Italian officers, who got a Bogdan Khmelnitsky 3rd class .

Sorry Christian I must apologize, here I used the word "German" by mistake for Italian, I will correct it in my posts,

my point is I do not see why you needed to raise the concern that the item was "stolen" as there are a few possibilities to how

an Italian / German, etc.. etc.. could obtain it,

A, taken from a Russian Soldier,

B,found amongst abandoned equipment,

C,Found in a enemy position,

D,Given to him by a German or Russian.

Kevin in Deva.

[Guest Rick Research]

Somebody kindly tell the poor fellow whether the Order is REAL or not. If it is real, it can be researched and a full archival research will reveal what happened to the Soviet recipient. And THAT will resolve extraneous issues.

The Soviet officer's personnel file will reveal whether he was captured, killed in action, or was reported missing.

[Paul R]

Somebody kindly tell the poor fellow whether the Order is REAL or not. If it is real, it can be researched and a full archival research will reveal what happened to the Soviet recipient. And THAT will resolve extraneous issues.

The Soviet officer's personnel file will reveal whether he was captured, killed in action, or was reported missing.

This would be the first instance I have heard of an Italian bringing back a Soviet War prize!

[Christian Zulus]

This would be the first instance I have heard of an Italian bringing back a Soviet War prize!

Dear Paul,

that's exactly the point .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: For judging, if the order is genuine or not, we will need better scans ...

[paddywhack]

intresting award but whats all the stuff on the back?

[order_of_victory]

intresting award but whats all the stuff on the back?

To me that bubbling on the back would imply chemical induced patina, but I am no expert by a long way

But if I was offered it I would walk away

Order of Victory

[militalian]

Dear Collector Friends ,

the item come from an italian "Savoia " Cavalry Regiment officer's home .

I've find also other items , please see the links .

Thanks.

Militalian

Detail badge

Large badge scan

Russ. sabre

Sabre detail

Dagger detail

If you like we are other russian blades , Forgive me for my poor english .

Edited October 23, 2007 by militalian

[Alfred]

I would send it to Alexei for authentification.

Is there a dot on the blade of the right sabre?

What is the exact weight of the Order and the measurements?

regards

Andreas

[Bryan]

Lot's of money and history right here if those orders are all real!

[Ed_Haynes]

Absolutely! If real (???) much history there. How faked into Italy???

Worth getting checked and researched. Could be quite a tale.

[Christophe]

I think the Order exact weight and measurements could help our experts to have a first opinion.

Ch.

[Ed_Haynes]

Do not like the crud on the back, though.

[militalian]

Hello Friends,

the total weight is 31/32 grams .

Do you want see other russian sabres scans ?

Take care and greetings from Rome.

Militalian

[Christian Zulus]

Hello Friends,

the total weight is 31/32 grams .

Do you want see other russian sabres scans ?

Take care and greetings from Rome.

Militalian

Dear Militalian,

the weight of your order is perfect .

Igor offers now s/n. 4790 for USD 5.700,- : http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=17931

Best regards

Christian

[militalian]

Dear Christian ,

thanks for the notices .

I not collect Russian Militaria, I hope to change my russian items with italian or german militaria items.

I post the complete order with the rear plaque/nut .

Take care and greetings from Rome.

Luigi

P.S. forgive my poor english !

( Click the links for photos )

Complete order #1

Complete order #2