EK 1939 New to Iron Cross

[VonBierStein]

I am still new to this hobby. Lately I have had the urge to start collecting Iron Crosses. I am planning on starting with EKII and working my way up. Question..What to look for in an Iron Cross, how to tell authenticity and how prevalent are the reproductions? I have not seen any side by side comparisons as of yet and would like to have more knowledge on this topic. I plan on purchasing literature on the topic. First reference book should be here soon. Planning a trip to make purchase very soon. Any help would be kindly appreciated. A topic should be started for new collectors in each area to help train us newbies in the art of not getting raked over the coals.

[joe campbell]

welcome to a most enjoyable hobby!

keep your money in your wallet until

you've looked at a lot of the threads

here, or do your buying with someone

who can help you make a good choice.

reference books are available. o like

The Iron Time because of the great pictures

and the well written text on the history of

the iron cross.

have fun!

joe

[VonBierStein]

welcome to a most enjoyable hobby!

keep your money in your wallet until

you've looked at a lot of the threads

here, or do your buying with someone

who can help you make a good choice.

reference books are available. o like

The Iron Time because of the great pictures

and the well written text on the history of

the iron cross.

have fun!

joe

Thanks.

[Richard Gordon]

Nothing in this hobby is safe. Everything is faked and even the cheapest, most common pieces have been reproduced.

I think the key is to find a collecting buddy who has experience is your chosen field. Joining here was your best move...we are your collecting buddy. I think learning the originals is important and also seeing examples of reproductions and comparing will help you to recognise good from bad. Beware, there are soome very, very good reproductions of the EK2... 3-piece, magnetic cores, frosted ribbing and polished frames just liek the originals. These came out in the 1980's but carried incorrect markings on the ring - 333. No such numbering code existed in the Third Reich but the cross itself was almost perfect. These, I believe, are attributed to a modern faker by the name of Floch.

You should go through the Iron Cross forum thread by thread and familiarise yourself with what are originals. If you can, go to shows and handle originals but go with someone who can help you. Also remember, while alot of fakes are one piece castings, there do also exist originals which are one piece too. Confusing, huh!?

Rich

[Ulsterman]

-also "666" and "999" and sometimes the ring has been replaced. Apparently made in the UK-3 piece and in the packets there were probably @ 2,000 of these things made with bags. They were sold to European dealers in larger numbers starting in the early 1990s and by 1995 were in the USA at gunfairs. Many were sold in lots of 100 from a well known Spanish dealer who KNEW they were fake before he passed them on the American dealers (inc. the Ruptured Duck).

These newer "spanish" crosses are a tad-but noticeably- lighter than many originals. The frame is Light and bright but after 15 years the patina is coming on and the frosting is coming off.

Gordon Williamsons' book is the first thing you should buy. It will save you hundreds of $$$.

Always assume the thing is a fake and work backwards. Make it or the seller prove beyond a reasonable doubt (to you) that it is original.

Things to look for (none are proof positive but put it all together):

1. Is it 3 piece construction? (Does it rattle within the fram if you shake it)

2. Is the core magnetic?

3. Is it the right size/weight?

4. Does it smell older?

5. Does the ribbon glow under blacklight (does the medal itself glow?): This latter one is not a big thing as many have replaced ribbons nowadays.

6. is there a return policy? If so-how long/good?

7. Is there patina/rust that makes sense on the piece?

Buy NOTHING from Poland or Russia!!

Edited October 30, 2007 by Ulsterman

[nesredep]

Nothing in this hobby is safe. Everything is faked and even the cheapest, most common pieces have been reproduced.

I think the key is to find a collecting buddy who has experience is your chosen field. Joining here was your best move...we are your collecting buddy. I think learning the originals is important and also seeing examples of reproductions and comparing will help you to recognise good from bad. Beware, there are soome very, very good reproductions of the EK2... 3-piece, magnetic cores, frosted ribbing and polished frames just liek the originals. These came out in the 1980's but carried incorrect markings on the ring - 333. No such numbering code existed in the Third Reich but the cross itself was almost perfect. These, I believe, are attributed to a modern faker by the name of Floch.

You should go through the Iron Cross forum thread by thread and familiarise yourself with what are originals. If you can, go to shows and handle originals but go with someone who can help you. Also remember, while alot of fakes are one piece castings, there do also exist originals which are one piece too. Confusing, huh!?

Rich

Hello!

I agree.

Regards

Nesredep

[Alex K]

Hi, welcome to the forum, I agree with all the other postings, you have fortunately OR unfortunately decided to step into the biggest minefield of nearly all medals collecting. The Iron Cross is one of the most collected awards of recent times, because of that it is also the most faked, I would agree, keep keep your money in your pocket, study, books, visit fares if you can to look at them, pick them up and examine them, if you have other experienced people who could go with you take them. Most importantly, you have joined this forum, and maybe others where there is a vast amount of experience and advice which is freely given in the spirit of fellow collectors. Today, there is a real challenge to collecting genuine period awards and other memorabilia, the real pleasure comes in doing the research, learning and then obtaining the piece you want. I can guarantee you that 90% of all members here have, at some time bought a "Turkey", unfortunately nowadays it goes with the job.

good huntuing

regards

Alex K

[Danny70]

Hi and welcome to GMIC!

I echo ALL of the previous comments and want to add the suggestion of building up your own database of downloaded pictures of both real and known fakes. Study these and try to be prepared before any purchase. Most budding collectors (myself included) cannot help but rush in to make their first purchase, so, you have done the correct thing by asking for advice.

The afore mentioned '333', '666' & '999' marked fakes, to my knowledge, are not the same as the fakes made by 'Floch'. The Floch fakes have distinctive dates & swastikas (but still very convincing) while the '333's (which are also found in unmarked form) have somewhat better details, they sometimes can be seen with a small frame die flaw on the lower part of the 3 o'clock arm.

I have also read suggestions that there is an excellent fake Fritz Zimmermann '6' doing the rounds, but this is still being debated. With so many makers, collecting these crosses is definitely a minefield.... but still very addictive!

Good luck, and never be too shy to ask for advice!

Regards - Danny

[VonBierStein]

Just returned from a show and made my first EKII purchase. I had a friend with me and I bought from a dealer I trust and have done business with before. A funny story...a female dealer was selling items way overpriced..she wanted to sell me an EKII for $350..I said yeah, maybe in 12 years. I told her the going rate and she challenged me to find one for that price...ten minutes later I walked back to her with the cross and the pricetag still attached..she wouldn't even look at me. I can't stand people like that. The cross she had was in horrible shape with a perfect ribbon..not a spot of fading whatsoever..Thanks for welcoming me to this part of the hobby. My collection is growing by great amounts each purchasing trip I make..I like to call it hunting..I do this with some friends and it's really a great time. Once again thanks.

[Alex K]

Just returned from a show and made my first EKII purchase. I had a friend with me and I bought from a dealer I trust and have done business with before. A funny story...a female dealer was selling items way overpriced..she wanted to sell me an EKII for $350..I said yeah, maybe in 12 years. I told her the going rate and she challenged me to find one for that price...ten minutes later I walked back to her with the cross and the pricetag still attached..she wouldn't even look at me. I can't stand people like that. The cross she had was in horrible shape with a perfect ribbon..not a spot of fading whatsoever..Thanks for welcoming me to this part of the hobby. My collection is growing by great amounts each purchasing trip I make..I like to call it hunting..I do this with some friends and it's really a great time. Once again thanks.

Hi VonbierStein, (BTW like the name) well done, it just goes to show that comments already posted about experience and discussions on forums such as this etc does pay off. Could you at some stage post photo'sof?the?item? for all to see?

regards

Alex

[buellmeister]

Vonbierstein,

Be careful, these little Ek's multiply quickly. Kudos to the Forum Members who didn't let him go down the path of making the wrong purchase.

Regsards,

Joel

[Motorhead]

Another victim...... -Rule Nr1 is reading-build up your own photo archive! If you know how the good ones are looking you are half on the winners side. rule Nr2-if you buy at the internet:good,clear pics or no deal! Rule Nr3-the better cross is the better buy-unmarked or heavily damaged pieces are hard to sell if you need the money!There are just a handful EKs that you can buy in nearly every condition-but not to every price! I overplayed sometimes just to close another hole in my collection....don't do that too often,that money is lost(never say never,but.....).

There are non-magnetic 1939 EKs ! First class is easy,but 2nd class you have do know how they are looking! And a rattle core is nothing wrong.....From now you can't sleep any more and your finances will be ruined for the rest of your days!

And there is no therapy!

Micha

[buellmeister]

Another member of the EK' aholics anonomous

[VonBierStein]

I posted the pics on another spot "My first one" I am already thinking about the next one. Any good ideas on how to go about getting more without having to go to shows all the time?

[VonBierStein]

Working on my second purchase already. This information is invaluable. After being on other sites I really applaud the members of this site for honesty and integrity. It is nice to see collectors looking out for each other. I am sure I will be posting new pics soon. Here is a bad pick of my first purchase.

[VonBierStein]

Working on my second purchase already. This information is invaluable. After being on other sites I really applaud the members of this site for honesty and integrity. It is nice to see collectors looking out for each other. I am sure I will be posting new pics soon. Here is a bad pick of my first purchase.

I finally found out who the maker is. #56 It is a Robert Hauschild. Thanks to the people at Wermacht Awards. They have a great list of Makers with pictures.