Two WW2 Generals, One Ribbon Bar

[Guest Rick Research]

This half-height ribbon bar has frustrated me for over 20 years.

It came out of a treasure trove in the Hamburg area that contained the vast bulk of my Admirals' ribbon bars (none identified by the seller) and I had been trying to "fit" it to a Marine Infantry officer retreaded for WW2... no luck.

Thanks to Daniel's labours with the insanity of Württemberg's WW1 bestowals/returns/re-awards

without which it would be IMPOSSIBLE to figure out who actually WORE what

it has now come down to one of my usual either/or choices =

Generalleutnant Theobald (aka Theo-Helmut) Lieb (1889-1981), who freakishly won a Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross AND the oakleaves, 11 days apart in February 1944 (!)

orrrrrr

Generalleutnant Oskar Schimpf (1885-1948?/1958?).

I find (in my 1958 Keilig) no evidence that Schimpf ever served outside Germany during the war. Lieb's assignments leave the crucial winter of 1941/42 blank, though he seems to have wandered back and forth from combat assignments to city commandant jobs with odd regularity (wounded?)

The "problem" is that BOTH of them had an ÖM3K!!!

So IF this is the top row of two rows, that SHOULD be slid in there ahead of the Hindenburg Cross. Unless whatever else he had "balanced out" better by keeping the Austro-Hungarian award back with the foreign stuff in pre-1938 precedence. That turns up enough to be odd, but by no means uncommon.

Did Lieb serve in Russia over the winter of 1941/42?

I've had a long string of lack of success with the Biblio Generals' biography portraits-- but does he actually SHOW his ribbon bar in his portrait?

Schimpf hasn't reached Biblio's glacial alphabetical publishing schedule yet (sometimes I despair of living that long ) but when did he actually die, since I have two year dates--one of which must be a typo.

Nobody else matches up with the combination of WM3 and a WF3aX (Schimpf) or WF3bX (Lieb).

Edited November 1, 2023 by Dave Danner
fix diacritic

[Paul C]

These links may help with unit assignment:

<a href="http://saladeguerra.blogspot.com/2007/04/theobald-lieb.html" target="_blank">http://saladeguerra.blogspot.com/2007/04/theobald-lieb.html</a>

<a href="http://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Gener...ar%20Shimpf.htm" target="_blank">http://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Gener...ar%20Shimpf.htm</a>

Fron the pic of Lieb he had the Russian Campaign award. Schimf does not seem to have served in Russia.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Paul C

[Dueppel]

Hello Rick,

perhaps I can help you.

Here are Schimpf's ribbon bars or two of his ribbon bars. Although we never know all things exactly., I'm sure you can exclude Schimpf.

Best regards

Dueppel

Edited November 1, 2023 by Dave Danner
fix apostrophes

[Guest Rick Research]

Many thanks! Interesting that SCHIMPF did indeed keep the pre-1938 precedence, so if LIEB did as well.....

[ccj]

Many thanks! Interesting that SCHIMPF did indeed keep the pre-1938 precedence, so if LIEB did as well.....

Wow, how unexpected is it for Schimpf's ribbn bars to show up on this thread. The collectors on this forum are AMAZING to me...

I just hope to someday have a bar with WM3 and a WFaX combo.

Rick, what does the revese look like?

[Guest Rick Research]

Individual ribbons metal tab backs on a backing plate style. Rusty and icky. Because the half-height bar is so D shaped in profile, it kept rolling on me,and you would not believe how hard it was to get most of the curved to fit wreath to show. Didn't even try the back for the same reason.

Lieb had the Gold Military Merit Medal first, which he haad to turn in when he got his military Merit Order-Knight. So he was decorated 3 times... and got to wear 2. Württemberg was insane.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Dave Danner
fix diacritic

[Brian R]

Great bar!!

I assume Leib wore his EK2 spange on his buttonhole with no added mini on the ribbon bar...

Why would there be no LS ribbons on this bar? Was this simply Lieb's choice?

[Guest Rick Research]

Sometimes a "short version" was worn as a fashion choice, but usually this is a case of where two rows were worn, because one normal row was too long.

This is how Luftwaffe Generalstabsarzt Professor Dr.med. et phil. Ernst Koschel (1875-1961) wore his:

so I am presuming a similar set-up with the lower row of Lieb's gone astray long ago. He had Wehrmacht 25 and 12, the ÖM3K, possibly 1 or 2 of the 1938 "flowers" campaign medals and possibly other stuff like the ex-WW1 Central Powers Commemorative Medals.

Since he's badly frost-bitten (how in God's name did he keep that monocle in place? ) and wearing a furry cap but NO ribbon bar in that splendid color photo, still have no clue what else would have rounded out a lower row.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Dave Danner
fix diacritic

[webr55]

Generalleutnant Theobald (aka Theo-Helmut) Lieb (1889-1981), who freakishly won a Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross AND the oakleaves, 11 days apart in February 1944 (!)

I find (in my 1958 Keilig) no evidence that Schimpf ever served outside Germany during the war. Lieb's assignments leave the crucial winter of 1941/42 blank, though he seems to have wandered back and forth from combat assignments to city commandant jobs with odd regularity (wounded?)

Did Lieb serve in Russia over the winter of 1941/42?

Schimpf hasn't reached Biblio's glacial alphabetical publishing schedule yet (sometimes I despair of living that long ) but when did he actually die, since I have two year dates--one of which must be a typo.

KC and oakleaves for the "Lion of Cherkassy" Lieb, who crossed a river during the Cherkassy battle "swimming alongside his horse" (back is rusty??... ) . And according to his bios entry, he was "acting leader" of the 290. Inf-Div from Sep to Nov 1941 in Russia.

Schimpf, according to his entry on the "Special Camp 11" pages, died 1958 in Wiesbaden.

Edited November 16, 2007 by webr55

[saschaw]

Here's one more, apparently to the same wearer, but with the order of awards massively screwed up.

Did a picture of Lieb wearing a ribbon bar pop up in the meantime?

[saschaw]

On 02/04/2010 at 14:43, saschaw said:

Did a picture of Lieb wearing a ribbon bar pop up in the meantime?

Something new, in the past ten years? It would be great to see him wear such a bar in two rows...

[saschaw]

Still interested in a photo with the Lieb ribbon bar(s) in wear, despite it's not "living" with me anymore. Regarding Generalleutnant Schimpf, however, a portrait of him is currently being offered on ebay!

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 21/08/2020 at 20:59, saschaw said:

Something new, in the past ten years? It would be great to see him wear such a bar in two rows...

Well there are some examples from the third reich, where you can see people wearing these bars in two rows. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by BlackcowboyBS

[saschaw]

On 10/08/2022 at 19:18, BlackcowboyBS said:

Well there are some examples from the third reich, where you can see people wearing these bars in two rows.

You must be kidding, right? I asked specifically for a picture of Generalleutant Theobald LIEB, wearing one of the two upper row ribbon bars shown in this thread. The use of ribbon bars in two rows is generally know, and had already been demonstrated here by Rick in 2007 with the Koschel group... please, could you maybe pay a little more attention before posting? Thank you.