New Ribbon Bar

[ccj]

Here's a nice ribbon bar I received today.

Can anyone tell me who the original owner was?

Oh yeah, the person who sent it to me is excluded.

[Guest Rick Research]

Not unless you show us the back.

You know how I have to see the back.

[ccj]

Not unless you show us the back.

You know how I have to see the back.

I'm working on it

[ccj]

I'm working on it

I knew I had it here, problem was I was looking at it so I couldn't see it...

[Paul C]

There is not perfect match. The closest is a KzS Retzmann, but he does not have the Austrain or Turkish ribbon. Unless the docs are with the bar I don't think it can be traced 100%.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Paul C

[Deruelle]

Hi Paul,

This is the Imtiaz Medal with sabers and date.

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, very nice wartime popsicle stick "pin". I had assumed it would be navy blue but also did not find a match in the February 1918 Rank List.

[ccj]

[Paul C]

ccj ... do you know who's ribbon bar this is?

[Guest Rick Research]

Ayuh... because there aren't enough hours in the day to WASTE on games.

Don't mind searching for an unknown,

but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much to do to lose time pointlessly.

While satisfying to resolve a mystery, the process involves time and effort taken away from other things. It's WORK (unpaid), not "fun."

[saschaw]

But wasn't it offered as identified? I remember the auction, but I'm not sure ...

Though very nice bar, anyway.

[ccj]

My understanding is that it may be ID'd to Oberstleutnant D?rr from I.R. Nr. 27. I can't find him though. I don't have the resources to verify it I guess.

[Dave Danner]

My understanding is that it may be ID'd to Oberstleutnant D?rr from I.R. Nr. 27. I can't find him though. I don't have the resources to verify it I guess.

It matches Duerr's prewar awards:

[ccj]

It matches Duerr's prewar awards:

Oh, I forgot about the ue spelling instead of ?. Maybe that's him. Ii's hard to know for sure unless there's a wartime or post war listing for D?rr

[ccj]

Shouldn't the Centenary Medal be listed?

Edited November 30, 2007 by ccj

[Paul C]

Campaign and the centennial medal were never listed in the Prussian Ranklist. The only D?rr that is a close fit is the one that Dave shows, BUT he received a Ernestine House Order and also has the SWA medal. So I do not think it is him. Also with the blue back, Hamburg, Oldenburg and Bremem Ribbons I would say this is definately Navy, nor Army.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Paul C

[webr55]

We have several D?rrs here:

- The one mentioned by Paul is Konrad D?rr, Major 20.9.09, who was Hptm in MschGwAbt 8 in 1908, went into 3. GzF and was "Maschinengewehr-Offizier vom Platz" in Metz in 1914.

- no first name D?rr, Major 27.1.09, was Hptm in F?sR 40 in 1908, Major in IR 92 in 1914.

- Ludwig D?rr, Major 4.8.09, was Hptm in GR 6 in 1908, Major zD in Ldwbez Frankfurt/M. in 1914.

- This one is Eugen Duerr, Major 21.2.11L, Hptm in IR 74 in 1908, Adjutant at the Reichsmilit?rgericht in 1913 (with the uniform of IR 74), and in IR 27 in 1914. He died (probably of wounds) on 10.9.1918 in Bad Oeynhausen.

Edited November 30, 2007 by webr55

[Paul C]

I have been getting confused between the D?rr and Duerr. Duerr was in IR 27 pre-war and had the awards listed and as far as I can determine, nothing else. I am still not convinced that the bar is Duerr's because of the blue back and the bar really seems Navy to me.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Paul C

[ccj]

Eugen Duerr/D?rr,

Major 21.2.1911

Hptm in IR 74 in 1908,

Adjutant at the Reichsmilit?rgericht in 1913 (with the uniform of IR 74), What does this mean? Uniform of...

IR 27 in 1914 Was he a Major or Oberst?

He died on 10.9.1918 in Bad Oeynhausen. What unit?

BTW, I have another with blue back and I'm not sure its Navy. I think its Army.

[ccj]

Question

Should the 1st ribbon bar have a crown with red enamel on the Red Eagle Order ribbon?

[Guest Rick Research]

With only freakish exceptions, blue backing turns out to be navy.

2nd bar has too many variables, and again, too many awards with no ROLLS done.

2nd ribbon normally would be a KO4X-- which for CHINA 1900 (4th ribbon) and NO 1897 Centenary is hardly possible. (Officers that junior were not normally selected to go.) If it is a WW1 HOH3X without the usual crown over the Xs, I find no match-- but then 20% of the Hohenzollerns were never gazetted. It is also possible that the China was a stay-at-home steel medal--neither were shown in Prussian or Navy Rank Lists.

5th ribbon's unauthorized wear indicates a Protestant Johanniter Order (probably) so a "von Somebody." If it was a Catholic Malta of one version or other it'd be back among the foreigns--but even that rule is not followed here.

6th ribbon = God knows what, since what is on there is actually the ribbon for the Baden Veterans Association Medal. That hardly seems credible, but for no apparent reason whatsoever, period outfitters seem never to have had the right ribbon for either the 1902 or 1906 Baden Jubilee Medals-- I suspect this is supposed to be the latter.

7th ribbon for SMK-- Roll done and complete, but unable to match any recipient with the variables and missing data here for other awards.

8th ribbon cannot tell if a round wreath device is missing for an ?M3K (generic combatant officer), or if it never had a device (in which case most likely a Franz Joseph Order on war ribbon = doctors, usually). This should be last as a foreign award, not ahead of Brunswick and Hamburg.

Despite all our work, there are still MORE GAPS THAN ROLLS for wartime awards with no known rolls, if the officers did not continue on into Reichswehr service:

This particular 1 1/2 sets of sew-ons (2 rows and bottom row--also have a pinback top row)

is the most extreme example from my collection.

With 13 wartime awards-- 6 of which have Rolls for the Orders that are at least 80% complete and a 7th Order whose Roll exists in the Archive but no one has got or is doing--

cannot be identified.

Now that would seem to defy all statistical odds, wouldn't it? That with 6 Rolls done, this "sextet" doesn't leap right out? At least 2 of the 6 do not, because in endless attempts at combinations, no more than 4 in many different combinations from among the 6 can be found, and with those multiple 4-matchers, no verification can be made for any of the OTHER awards, because those have NO Rolls and this officer vanishes from published Rank Lists after 1914-- when he didn't have ANY of these.

Yes. 3 AM, pacing the floor. Year after year.

[ccj]

The second ribbon bar is missing the wreath on the Austrian ribbon. I bought this one several years back from forum member. This one has been discussed because but I don't recall the 6th ribbon has ever been mentioned as a vererans medal.

Interesting. I have three or four bar with black ribbons. One is bavarian.

Edited December 1, 2007 by ccj

[ccj]

One of my favorites. Black ribbon but the backing isn't blue. It's gray so I'm sure its army. Maybe a staff officer.

[ccj]

My bavarian bar. i may be the only guy who has bars with the black ribbon of the Malta or Johannitor orders.

[ccj]

With only freakish exceptions, blue backing turns out to be navy.

2nd bar has too many variables, and again, too many awards with no ROLLS done.

2nd ribbon normally would be a KO4X-- which for CHINA 1900 (4th ribbon) and NO 1897 Centenary is hardly possible. (Officers that junior were not normally selected to go.) If it is a WW1 HOH3X without the usual crown over the Xs, I find no match-- but then 20% of the Hohenzollerns were never gazetted. It is also possible that the China was a stay-at-home steel medal--neither were shown in Prussian or Navy Rank Lists.

5th ribbon's unauthorized wear indicates a Protestant Johanniter Order (probably) so a "von Somebody." If it was a Catholic Malta of one version or other it'd be back among the foreigns--but even that rule is not followed here.

6th ribbon = God knows what, since what is on there is actually the ribbon for the Baden Veterans Association Medal. That hardly seems credible, but for no apparent reason whatsoever, period outfitters seem never to have had the right ribbon for either the 1902 or 1906 Baden Jubilee Medals-- I suspect this is supposed to be the latter.

7th ribbon for SMK-- Roll done and complete, but unable to match any recipient with the variables and missing data here for other awards.

8th ribbon cannot tell if a round wreath device is missing for an ?M3K (generic combatant officer), or if it never had a device (in which case most likely a Franz Joseph Order on war ribbon = doctors, usually). This should be last as a foreign award, not ahead of Brunswick and Hamburg.

Despite all our work, there are still MORE GAPS THAN ROLLS for wartime awards with no known rolls, if the officers did not continue on into Reichswehr service:

This particular 1 1/2 sets of sew-ons (2 rows and bottom row--also have a pinback top row)

is the most extreme example from my collection.

With 13 wartime awards-- 6 of which have Rolls for the Orders that are at least 80% complete and a 7th Order whose Roll exists in the Archive but no one has got or is doing--

cannot be identified.

Now that would seem to defy all statistical odds, wouldn't it? That with 6 Rolls done, this "sextet" doesn't leap right out? At least 2 of the 6 do not, because in endless attempts at combinations, no more than 4 in many different combinations from among the 6 can be found, and with those multiple 4-matchers, no verification can be made for any of the OTHER awards, because those have NO Rolls and this officer vanishes from published Rank Lists after 1914-- when he didn't have ANY of these.

Yes. 3 AM, pacing the floor. Year after year.

Rick, I do like that ribbon bar. I've only seen one that large in period photos.