Hungary M-63 Lt Col Infantry Parade tunic

[hunyadi]

Here is another tunic I picked up recently. Whats nice about it is that it started life as an M1957 tunic, but in 1963 (or there abouts) it was converted to the new regulations. The green infantry piping around the collar was removed (though there is a small fragment stuck in the right lapel to confirm it was green!) and newer style shoulder boards were used. Prior ot 1963 the shoulder boards were colored in the color of the serivce branch, however after 1963 they all changed to a greenish brown color except for police, border guard and the Karhatalom (but these were all branches with the Interior Ministry)

[hunyadi]

detail

[Hauptmann]

Hi Charles,

Another terrific uniform! And I do love them when fitted out with all their gewgaws!!!! Really brings both the uniforms and awards themselves to life showing them in all their combined glory!

Dan

[Ulsterman]

I am really coming to appreciate these tunics. Was only one parade badge allowed?

Nice medal bar too.

[Gordon Craig]

Ulsterman,

We know from our research that the 10 year Anniversary badge could be worn for 10 years. We do not know how long the other parade badges could be officially worn. They do not appear in period photographs so it is hard to say. I do beleive that you would only be allowed to wear one parade badge at a time. That is just a personal opinion though and I do know of any regulations dealing with the wearing of these badges in an on-going basis. Charles has been doing a lot of translating lately and perhaps he has come up with something new.

Glad to hear that you are growing in your appreciation of these tunics. Seems to happen as one becomes more familiar with them.

Regards,

Gordon

[hunyadi]

Here is what I have found -

Recently on 'Vatera' there was a set to one individual. IN the set were the parade badges and documents for 1950, 1952, and 1954. Each document stated that the badge could be worn from April 4th of 195X to April 3rd of the following year. I have yet to find a document post 1955, but as Gordon pointed out - thre is not much photographic evidence to support that multiple parade badges could be worn. IF they did it like the 1955 badge it could be possible that the 1965 badge could be worn till the 1975 badge etc....

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

Thanks for confirming my own thoughts that it could be worn for a year. I didn't have anything to substatiate that theroy but now I do.

Regards,

Gordon

[bazsi]

Here is another tunic I picked up recently. Whats nice about it is that it started life as an M1957 tunic, but in 1963 (or there abouts) it was converted to the new regulations. The green infantry piping around the collar was removed (though there is a small fragment stuck in the right lapel to confirm it was green!) and newer style shoulder boards were used. Prior ot 1963 the shoulder boards were colored in the color of the serivce branch, however after 1963 they all changed to a greenish brown color except for police, border guard and the Karhatalom (but these were all branches with the Interior Ministry)

Just a small note for this good looking tunic. It isn't a M1957, it is a M1965 tunic, not a converted one, but a little bit new design (without branch color, and lower half "cut").

Regards,

Bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

bazsi,

Welcome to the forum. You are of course correct. I'd like to expand a bit on your comments to perhaps clarify things a little for some of the other forum members. The front of the 57 M tunic was made from four pieces of material, a top piece and a bottom piece for each side. These two pieces were joind together, horizontally, between the breast pockets and the skirt pockets. Sewing the two pieces together forms a line across the front of the tunic which does not appear on the 65 M tunic as the front of it was made of only two pieces of material. One for each side of the front.

Regards,

Gordon

[hunyadi]

I would have to dig it out of storage - but this one did at one point in its life have green piping along the collar and then it was removed and resewn - so it was originaly a pre 1965 tunic...

[bazsi]

Hi Gordon,

It's nice to meet you in the virtual space:-)!

Thanks for the detailed description, my english is too poor for the description of the specifications of these tunics. The pre 65 tunics has another specific marker. The inner side of the arms are made of white textile.

From 1961, only branch colors remained, and it is disappeared in 1965. Removed and resewn versions are rarest one's.

Regards,

Bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

bazsi has covered what I left out of my post this morning. Sorry about that. I was in a rush to get to Petoffi Csarnok before all of the goodies were gone and didn't take the time to explain my self completely. S?ndor Moln?r uses the date 1963 as when he believes the design change came into effect for what is now called the 65 M tunic by Hungarian collectors. Although he isn't sure of the date of the change. bazsi uses 1961 which could be correct as well. The only thing we can be sure of is that after they went to the two piece front for the tunic that they still used coloured piping and that in 1965 the piping was discontinued.

bazsi,

Good to have you on the forum. We need more Hungarian's to take part. Our research can take us only so far. I see that you have also visited the Austor Hungarain Forum. Good to have you there as well. I have a 57 M that has had the colored piping removed. Be nice to see one with the piping still there.

Regards,

Gordon

[bazsi]

Gordon,

Thanks for the kind words! I hope, that I will be useful in the Hungarian parts of this great forum.

It is a pleasant thing, that the research brings new facts nowdays (thanks to Sanyi and Tam?s). From the new evidences (photos and informations form the paper Nephadsereg, Sanyi, Tamas (and me also) thinks, that the "two piece design" disappeared in 1961, but the tunic, and the number remained M1957 (because of the piping). We use to marker, M1957 (with piping, two piece construction, branch colors, branch color insignias) for these tunics, and M1965 for the new design: without piping, two piece construction, branch colors, branch color insignias).

The early M1965 tunics often has M1957 buttons, and old gold shoulderboards.

In my opinion the most interesting thing always the temporary used and modificated versions.

Regards,

Bazsi

____________________________________

www.nephadsereg.hu

Edited May 24, 2009 by bazsi

[bazsi]

Gordon,

Thanks for the kind words! I hope, that I will be useful in the Hungarian parts of this great forum.

It is a pleasant thing, that the research brings new facts nowdays (thanks to Sanyi and Tam?s). From the new evidences (photos and informations form the paper Nephadsereg, Sanyi, Tamas (and me also) thinks, that the "two piece design" disappeared in 1961, but the tunic, and the number remained M1957 (because of the piping). We use to marker, M1957 (with piping, two piece construction, branch colors, branch color insignias) for these tunics, and M1965 for the new design: without piping, two piece construction, branch colors, branch color insignias).

The early M1965 tunics often has M1957 buttons, and old gold shoulderboards.

In my opinion the most interesting thing always the temporary used and modificated versions.

Regards,

Bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

bazsi,

Thanks for the in depth analysis. I thought I understood, and used, common terms for these tunics as used by Hungarian collectors but I am a little confused by what you have said here. For example, what would you you call a tunic that was one piece of material on each side, had originally been produced with the piping, and then had the piping removed? So far, there has only two designations used, 1957M or 1965M.

I suspected that you would know Sanyi and Tam?s. I am looking forward to the next book when it comes out next year. Sanyi has promised to send me a copy as I will be returning to Canada this August. We should meet some time and discuss our collections.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited May 24, 2009 by Gordon Craig

[bazsi]

Hi Gordon,

Yes, I know Sanyi. I know Tam?s just a bit, from forums and mails. We used to work a lot in these questions with Sanyi. He told me a lot of good things about you:-).

Usage of common terms were great problems a few months before. Luckily we have new informations (mostly from the reserach of the new book) and from other sources. We have imprecise things a lot, but the early K?d?r-era seems more clear nowdays, than a few months before.

We uses just these two designations. The M1957 can be the one in the regulations, the one piece construction with piping. In my opinion the one piece tunic without piping is a transient, modificated M1957, it is better called M1957/M1965, as it is used by the transient M1951/M1957 or M1951-1954/M1957.

I hope to meet you some day!

Regards,

Bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

bazsi,

Thanks for the clarification. In essence then, Charles can call this tunic anythig he wants to and be correct. I owe him an appology then. Once Sanyi and Tam?s finish this Kadar era book we will probably have a definitive model number to call these modified and unmodified tunics. In the meantime we can use desriptions rather than rely on model numbers.

You should visit Tam?s some time at his museum office. It is an amazing place and you can get more questions answered there in an hour than you can in months of research.

As for meeting each other, that can be arranged at any time. I'll PM you with my mobile number.

Regards,

Gordon

[bazsi]

In this case the classification is clear. The buttons are M1965 types, the shoulderboards are also M1965, late versions from the 70's. So it is better to call it M1965.

The basic form of the written part of the book is Sanyi's article on our website, www.nephadsereg.hu. Sanyi used to speak with Tam?s and me with Sanyi about the new informations and we used to think together. I think this is the best way to develop.

Thanks for the PM, I'll write back soon.

Regards,

Bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

bazsi,

Thanks for explaining why you called it a 65 M tunic. I haven't looked at the web site much since it was moved. I'll have to do that soon.

Too bad you live outside of BP. Perhaps I'll be in your area before we leave and we can get together.

Regards,

Gordon

[bazsi]

We have a lot of new photos on our new website. This is the new feature of it. We post new things periodically. But it is a new one, we made it at the first period of this year.

I hope you'll find interesting things and useful informations.

Regards,

Bazsi

bazsi,

Thanks for explaining why you called it a 65 M tunic. I haven't looked at the web site much since it was moved. I'll have to do that soon.

Too bad you live outside of BP. Perhaps I'll be in your area before we leave and we can get together.

Regards,

Gordon

[Sandor Molnar]

Hi Gordon and Bal?zs, hi all,

Bal?zs told me about this site, I was curious, and now I am here. I've browsed the threads, the site is really great, you can find a lot of interesting information. Thanks Bal?zs for the great idea!

Regarding the tunic in question I would call it a 1965 modified 1957M, as the standard terminology does not discriminate between "waistcut" and "no waistcut" 1957M's. We could of course introduce a new denomination, in this case it would be a 1961M, as these tunics were "put in service" in 1961. The coloured pipings were used until 1965, when the standard 1965M uniform was introduced.

Gordon, the militaria wholesaler in Szolnok called Reintex sells medal holders of the kind (for military diplomat uniforms) you are looking for.

Regards, Sandor

[hunyadi]

Well - I did just find the tunic and pull it out to get a photo of the fragment of piping... still interested or is the matter closed?

I my opinion - if I were to write about this tunic - I would simply state "early M1957 tunics had a two piece waist while a one piece waist appeared around 1961". At the most - its a variant - not a model, but that is just my interpretation...

[Gordon Craig]

Charles,

As I said earlier, you can call it what you please and it would be correct. I was under the impression that tunics like the one you pictured were all refered to as 1965M by Hungarian collectors and obviously I was wrong and have appologized for that. Matter closed I think.

Sandor,

Sorry but I thought that you already knew about this site. Charles and I have worked hard to make it a useful and interesting one and I am glad that you found something of interest here. Re the wholesaler; it was not the metal ribbon/medal holders I was after. Those are relatively easy to get. What I need is the Hungarian ribbons so that I can create a medal bar for one of the Diplomatic tunics that I have. Do you know if the wholesaler carries the ribbon by the roll or any ribbons at all? What I find for sale is ribbons already made up into the trifold shape. I need just a plain length of ribbon to recreate the diplomatic Soviet style medal bar for the Hungarian style ribbon bar pictured below. The last ribbon, which is for a Cuban medal, will not be on the medal bar. I will probably just pin it on separately in the Soviet style of using the awarding countries mounting system.

Regards,

Gordon

[bazsi]

Hi Sandor!

Welcome to the forum! I think Gordon has right about the denomination (you can use what you want, and it can be correct), but it would be the best situation if we can make and use accepted denominations. In this case we have 3 problems:

1. Waist cut disappeared in 1961, but the denomination of these tunics remains M1957.

2. Piping disappeared in 1965.

3. After 1965, these eraly K?d?r style tunics were transformed into M1965, in this case with a late M1965 shoulderboards.

In my opinion, the best would be if we call it (like M1951/1957): M1957/1965.

Gents! What do you think about this solution?

Gordon,

Are you sure, that the last ribbon is a cuban one? The german (GDR) Brotherhood in Arms Medal - Silver (1966)has the same ribbon, but the yellow is thinner. I think it is just a small mistake by painting. Reintex has the ribbon for this medal, but just for ribbon bars, and not for the whole size medal.

Regards,

Bazsi

Edited May 26, 2009 by bazsi

[Gordon Craig]

bazsi,

No, it is not possible for the last ribbon to be for theDDR Brotherhod in Arms Medal. The ribbons are quite different. Please see the pictres below for all three classes of the DDR medal.

Regards,

Gordon