France Unique mounting to great group....

[Chris Boonzaier]

I like the style on the bars.... this set is unusually done with 2 to a row.....

anyone notice anything else?

[Vatjan]

anyone notice anything else?

Yes the croix de guerre is mounted backwards to show the 1914-16 dates.

Nice group Chris

Jan

[Paul R]

No WW1 Victory medal?

[David Gregory]

No WW1 Victory medal?

The recipient may not have lived long enough to receive one.

[Dave Danner]

The recipient may not have lived long enough to receive one.

The Croix du Combattant wasn't created until 1930, so if it's there then there probably should be an Interallied Victory Medal. Maybe there was a third row with the Victory and something else like a UNC Medal or a Verdun Medal.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am not so sure.... the Victory SHOULD be there... but having the experience of going through all the loops and twists of getting medals issued after having left the service (even in the easy online times), it may be that he never bothered.

You seem to have to apply at different places for different medals. Maybe he had the MM, CdG and 14-18 and left it at that. The CdC was issued by a different authority and maybe he did not bother until the 30s to get that.

These are the minis...

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25669

There was no CdC mini, so I assume for years he had the three, then in the 30s got the large CdC.

[Hendrik]

... and isn't the palm usually affixed to the CdG ribbon the other way (palm's stem to the viewer's left) ?

As Dave indicated, it's probably missing one more row with the Victory Medal and another.

Nice set anyway as the 1914-16 CdG are increasingly more difficult to find these days.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Veteran]

Hello Chris

This group should have the french Victory Medal. All personnel who had received a croix de guerre had an automatic right to it (arr?t? 20/07/1922 art.: 7).

IT WAS NEVER ISSUED. In typical french manner, if you were intitled to it, you could wear it. If you were not intitled and wore it, you were prosecultable.

In some instances, the Unit you had belonged to (if it still existed at the time the Medal was established) could deliver a certificate confirming the "right-to-wear". In all cases, if you wanted to wear it, you were free to buy one. But, to my knowledge, none were officially issued. This is one of the reasons why several types of french Victory medals are in existence, one struck by the National Mint, the others manufactured by private firms.

The answer to this particular group is one of three possibilities :

1. He never bothered to buy one or did not care about having one or not.

2. One existed which was lost or separated (it should normally have been worn berween the Croix du Combattant and the Commemorative War Medal).

3. This group was made up or completed by some one else, who skipped the Victory Medal. (The fact that all awards seem to have been worn does not make this very likely).

One really has to remember the different attitudes towards awards and decorations, from one country to an other. The French, basically, issue permissions to wear. The actual badge is for the recipient to acquire. It is often presented by friends, relatives or colleagues. Some military units have a tradition of presenting the awards, which are bought from the Mint. A small number of very special awards are issued - which cannot be bought.

I know it is hard to understand. But that is the way it has worked in France since the Legion of honor was created and the badges first issued (1802-1804).

Greetings

Veteran

NB. The mounting of the Croix de guerre showing the dates is meaningful : this man wanted it to be known that he had received an early first mention in dispaches (1916) before such mentions became very frequent. This to show he was an old-timer. An unusual personnal touch.

[Chris Boonzaier]

The answer to this particular group is one of three possibilities :

1. He never bothered to buy one or did not care about having one or not.

2. One existed which was lost or separated (it should normally have been worn berween the Croix du Combattant and the Commemorative War Medal).

3. This group was made up or completed by some one else, who skipped the Victory Medal. (The fact that all awards seem to have been worn does not make this very likely).

Hi,

I would go with 1) simply because...

1) the wear to the medals and ribbons is exactly the same.

2) If you take the MM, CdG and 14-18 along with the 3 miniatures you would have his group as it would probably have been in 1920-21... maybe at this point he looses interest?

3) The CdC added way later.... with good reason... by applying for the CdC you have pension rights and who would pass up on that ?!?!?!? ;-)

I would agree 100% that the victory medal belongs there... but I waited almost 15 years to get around to picking up the necessary to complete my own bar and can see where he could just ghave said "bugger it...."

Of course, its all just guess work on my part, more interesting would have been what he did for the citations....

[Veteran]

Chris

I also favor possibility n?1.

If you don't mind, I would like to comment some of your statements.

You cannot apply for a croix de guerre. Your commanding officer either chooses to put you up for a mention (citation) or not. This is accepted by hierarchy or not. You finally get it or not.

A croix de guerre and its "citations" carry no right to a pension. Only length of services and wounds received during active service are considered. The M?daille militaire also carries a small pension, as does the Legion of honor under circumstances. On the other hand citations are considered as "titres de guerre" and they can be taken in account for further advancement in national orders.

As suggested in my previous message, the wearing of the croix de guerre showing its reverse, could well be deliberate and contmporary of the end of the war. He would have wanted it to be known that he received an early award, which again goes well with his multiple citations on the ribbon and the M?daille militaire which might well have been awarded for gallantry as the palm on the CdG suggests.

One of thousands of brave men who fought in the 1914-1918 War. His group looks perfectly genuine to me.

Congratulations for a very good group of awards.

Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, quite a lovely group. A shame there's no name to go with it, but in its lovely anonymous state it represents quite well any one of the soldiers.

The emerging theory makes sense to this outsider. I do wonder however whether he may have had a Victory originally mounted, but removed it when the CdC came along to make space for the new award. In any case, this arrangment speaks of the unknown repipient.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris

I also favor possibility n?1.

If you don't mind, I would like to comment some of your statements.

You cannot apply for a croix de guerre.

One of thousands of brave men who fought in the 1914-1918 War. His group looks perfectly genuine to me.

Congratulations for a very good group of awards.

Veteran

Hi Vet,

I meant the Croix de combattant (CdC as my abreviation).

Best

Chris

[Veteran]

OK Chris.... re?u 5/5. Let's write things out, it will avoid such mistakes. My apologies.

Cheers

Veteran

[Michael Johnson]

As far as I know my grandfather did not bother to apply for any of his medals French or British (as an Interpreter attached to the B.E.F. he would have been entitled to a British War Medal). His brother-in-law only left a Legion d'Honneur, although we have photographs of him with the Croix de Guerre.