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Tuvinian Arat Republic


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I am requesting some help from the forum to point me to quality pics (in particular of the REVERSE incl. also clarity on the screwnut) of the Tuvinian Order of Labour.

One is currently (informally) on the market which - supposedly - belonged to Lodongiin Dandar (Mongolian hero) and I would like to verify it's authenticity.

Perhaps somebody owns a copy of A. Kutsenko, Y. Smirnov. Orders of Soviet Republics. 1996 and could highlight from their the reverse?

Unfortunately Herfurth's pic's are quite small and not clear.

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Thanks Christophe... and here is what I have received (i've had to blank out the serial number for privacy reasons).

I'm no expert on this award, but the area around the right of the sickle concerns me.

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Hi Bob,

That's a fact that the hammer and sickle look quite different.

But, they look closer to the one I'm posting now, which has a higher SN and a different maker mark.

I hope this will help you to make your opinion.

Cheers.

Ch.

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Hi Bob,

That's a fact that the hammer and sickle look quite different.

But, they look closer to the one I'm posting now, which has a higher SN and a different maker mark.

I hope this will help you to make your opinion.

Cheers.

Ch.

Thanks Christophe - it appears to make things even more inconclusive, but that's good in a way :cheers:

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Thanks Christophe - it appears to make things even more inconclusive, but that's good in a way :cheers:

Bob,

I personally have serious reservations as to the order you show.

Compare the mintmark with that of similar orders; it looks rather crude to me. Then there are many minute differences (beside the H&S) which make me doubt that the piece you show was manufactured at the same place as the other genuine ones.

Marc

Edited by Lapa
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here reverse

price at which this is being offered is heft, but FAR FAR less than 30k+ in recent NY auction

Keep in mind that market is very limited for republican awards. If you are buying this order for resale - you may have hard time finding a buyer for it, unless it's heavily discounted.

William

Edited by new world
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Bob,

I personally have serious reservations as to the order you show.

Compare the mintmark with that of similar orders; it looks rather crude to me. Then there are many minute differences (beside the H&S) which make me doubt that the piece you show was manufactured at the same place as the other genuine ones.

Marc

Hi there Marc would you mind letting us know which other differences you had in mind????

Thanks

JC

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Hi there Marc would you mind letting us know which other differences you had in mind????

Thanks

JC

JC,

I see some small differences in different areas:

. shape of the spike

. shape of the wheat sheaves

. small details on the ox and horse heads

. detail of the rivers

As I mentioned before, the mintmark is crude, which is unusual to say the least for MD work.

Of course, seeing the handwriting would also help assess the order.

Marc

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It looks to me simply that the hammer and sickle get snagged and BENT in wear, tugging them out of shape.

Good point, Rick. Never having had one in hand, I have no idea how "tight" the construction is.

Still, I'd want to see better images.

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It looks to me simply that the hammer and sickle get snagged and BENT in wear, tugging them out of shape.

Rick, I had the same thought....

Just for the hell of it I marked where the rivets are and it makes what you say very likely. The entire blade is unsupported.....

23k bends very easily after all.....

Eric... Thanks for the info but I must be missing something.....

Taking the lighting/bad scans into account I find the very things you mention not being the case....

The spike to me looks identical... the big shadow behind the pictures bob posted might be a problem....

The order posted by Christophe seems to be more worn on the high spots like the animal heads... that might account for some of the differences in the detail....

just my $.02

So no 100% conclusion either way then??????

JC

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last one....

JC

JC,

Try doing the same thing from the reverse side, you'll see right away that things do not match (wheat sheaves, pole, etc).

Regarding the H&S, this is standard attachment for Soviet orders; You'll find pretty much the same thing on the OPW or ORBL. And I do not believe that they were manufactured in 23k, but in 14k, which is much sturdier. That being said, it is indeed always possible that it got caught in something, but you'd have to be close to a brainless hare to simply tug hard on it to free it.

Marc

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