1870 noncombat ek2 bar

[scottplen]

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[scottplen]

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[scottplen]

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[scottplen]

last one is broke seems to a yellow thread

[Biro]

Interesting bar - a few questions for anyone who can help.

Scottplen - Any chance of a clear straight on shot of the 1914 repeat bar on the EK?

And is it marked on the reverse? (Joh Wagner with crown, moon & 800 I would expect)

Also can anyone hazard a guess from the battle bars etc.. roughly how old this guy might have been in 1914 if he started his first ever military service as (for example) a 20 year old doctor?

Cheers

Marshall

Edited April 22, 2008 by Biro

[Tom Y]

I don't understand the '66 noncobatant and he 70/71 combatant. If I remember the regs shouldn't it be in Stahl, even if am Kaempferband?

[Ulsterman]

yup-

However, over the past three years we have seen a number of instances where Doctors were given initially the combat medal and then about a year later, the non combat one. I can think of three off the top of my head including a remounted threesome that was the subject of an OMSA article to a MD. who was owed a US civil war campaign medal as well!

[scottplen]

Hello

Here s shot I can make out with a loop pulling up on repeat bar John wagner and sons berlin 800 and or something like that maybe a W !maybe a crown and something else I tried to get it off ribbon but starting to rip ribbon if was for sure put on ribbon before it was placed on bar ! am not going to rip it apart to show back sorry!the detail to this one is super its not some piece of junk i have seen out there its got round prongs it has very nice pebbling under really nice enameled iron cross ! from what i know of the 1870 campaign medal is the medal in bronze was for anyone who took part in any of battles the medal in steel was for all other personnel in france and medal in steel on combantant ribbon was for anyone on border or in germany who assisted in campaign ! I may be wrong on this but thats how i understood it ! I had another 1870 noncom bar I sold a bit ago that had 1866 noncombat ribbon the 1870 combat ribbon but the steel medal so there are 3 variations you find! I will see if i hav pics of it som were!age he would have been young! my guess was a young medicial aide or some type of medic ?? and became a doctor or something later! or a ambulance related ??? who knows?????I know bar came to me about 15 yrs ago or more probably closer to 20!!!in the box at a antique show in nj. and paid very little for it $ I think maybe $ 200-$300 maybe a little more ! but not much !so not concerned about getting my $ out of it !!

it came with a nazi police 8 yr medal in box also but sold it off and people who i got it from relayed it came from a family home of life long german military police family in germany during ww II! so there another ???? was he some type of MP but so much for oral history ! my thought is i keep thinking military police then red cross but why no ww I red cross medal ????and why crown order w/red cross device ??

come on guys HELP ME !!!!!

thanks scott

[Stogieman]

Scott, from these pictures; it appears that the 1870 EK2, The Crown Order and the long service cross have been tied to the bar with not only different thread from the last 2 KDM medals, but also in a completely different style of tying. This is not a good sign.

[scottplen]

hello

holding bar in my hands ! E2k the Ls and the 2 war medals have same thread ,the long service if you push ribbon away is wraped same as others,the 2 war medals seem to have remains of polish on medals and looks like it is on thread Thread is a black grey type! red eagle crown order and kaiser medal have diffrent thread ! the crown order has remains of grey black underneath seems someone went over it with black!seems ribbon was reinforced with other thread at one time! red eagle has white thread and kaiser thread is missing seems to have been yellow!

Thread on crown order seems to be same as wrapped arounf ek2 ,ls crown order and looks to be remains of it on ribbon of red eagle order!

I have owned this for many years and is how i found it ! when i got this someone had polished it a bit it has tarnished down in the yrs i have owned it!

Thanks scott

[scottplen]

Stogieman

I have been examing this bar ! I decided to rip up red wool back abit to look at threads underneath !

all are the same but for the red cross crown order ! I believe either someone repaired ribbon to tighten it up with other thread or switched out plain 4th class crown order for red cross one ! all other threads and ribbons seem correct ! I hated to rip this open but I needed to know!

now what do I do pull off red cross crown order and replace it with regular one or leave it be ?????

see pic what do you think!

I thought I knew my medal bars! guess i need to study up a bit more !!!!!

[Komtur]

I thought I knew my medal bars! guess i need to study up a bit more !!!!!

I hope it is a kind of consolation for you, this happens not only to you. It is unbelievable, what they do to these historic items . I?ll show you, what I bought about a year ago by a well known auction house from south Germany:

[Komtur]

On the next pic you can see, what this bar looks like before. This picture shows a part of the collection, where the bar above comes from.

I know that also here the KO4 with the red cross looks like manipulated. But someone exchange this cross to put on his place a copy of a AEZ with a red cross before I bought the bar.

BUT IT WAS MY FAULT! I DID NOT EXAMINED THE BAR BEFORE BUYING!

Now I learned my lesson

Best regards, Komtur.

[scottplen]

hello

Thanks!!!! I will not cut this one up I think crown order is a good one and someone maybe replaced a bad ribbon or something The rest of the bar seems not messed with!so I am leaving this alone as is as I found it!!!! thanks Komtur for putting my mind at ease!!!!

[Stogieman]

Scott, I don't think your mind should be at ease. Nor do I think you should be tearing apart your bars like this. The changes are evident from the front. Nothing else has been messed with. Someone has taken an original medal bar and replaced at least 3 of the medals, added the repeat bar, etc. The bar is good, the placement of incorrect medals is not. There's no reason to destroy the entire object over this.

Take a deep breath..... sit back and try to learn from the experience. I spotted the different threads/tie-down style when you first posted this bar. It's unpleasant, but it's also reality. There's an entire industry that exists doctoring real medal bars and real parts. It's no better with ribbon bars. Fakes everywhere.... using real ribbon, real devices, etc.

[scottplen]

what does not belong I can't believe this is bogus! I had it forever ! I always thougt the crown order was out of place but never relly gave it a second thought! Should it be a regular crown order? should I remove anything???? I did go overboard a bit on other bar!!!! but you could tell after i opened it up all 3 came from somewere else!!!Holding this in my hand all threads seem same in my eyes exept red cross crown order !the red eagle has a diffrent color tie down as does the kaiser medal White and yellow compared to ek2 ls and 2 war medals seem to have same tie down color war medals have remains of polish on them! giving them apearance of a diffrent color! should i try to clean it off??

don't worry stogieman I am not going to go crazy and rip it all apart!!!!! just frustrated!!!!

thanks scott

[Paul C]

It is for this reason that I usually do not buy a medal bar until I can trace it out to the original owner. If I can trace it out then I am rather sure it has not been messed with.

[Stogieman]

OK, deep breaths Scott.

First thing that stuck out to me on the bar was the 1870 EK2, The PCO4 and the LSC were all tied down with the same black thread accross the body of the crosses. Also, you can immediately see that the ?se (ring/knob) at the top of each piece is tied down differently. Look at the white thread on the RAO & the 2 KDMs. It is tied not only across the ?se, but also up the sides of the ?se as well.

The three pieces I mentioned are not tied this way.

Now..... things wear and break. The Centennial medal is not tied the same, it's loose... but if you look very closely I think you will see that the original threads/tie-down is still visible and once upon a time, this piece had the same tie-down. Note that whoever the original maker was he was quite meticulous and detail-oriented when the bar was originally made. The folds inside and out, the stitching pattern and the tie-downs would have been consistent on every single piece.

Also, the thread used on those pieces looks brand new and like nylon, which simply did not exist during the era.

Any time you buy a medal bar and see a deviation in any of these characteristics it should immediately make you put the brakes on and start examining everything very closely. Yes, there are sloppy bars, but it stands out as VERY out of place on this bar.

Next we have to look at the 1914 repeat spange. With under 100 actual awards and this being one of the most heavily reproduced items of the Imperial Era.... it should immediately make you go "hold on a second"... The fact that it is not properly placed on the ribbon itself is another clue that something is amiss.... It's not properly centered...

I suspect that ultimately you will find that the Jubilee Oak Leaves are a "dress-up" ploy as well. I cannot tell from the images if it is real or not...

Scott, you have posted some magnificent pieces. You should be proud of what you've accomplished on your own. Yes, some of your pieces have been altered/played with but I remember dealing with you almost 10 years ago on eBay. It's not you making the boo-boo's, it's a few unscrupulous people that took advantage of you. The pieces you have shown that had some issues would be easily rectified.

So welcome to the forum, live, learn and prosper and try to absorb as much as you can. There's some folks here who have been studying and identifying medal/ribbon bars since xerox was the best means of reproducing images and the internet was a secret idea in the brain of someone!

We all have made no small number of mistakes over the years. I know how you feel.... I had no shortage of blunders years ago... I am not perfect, nobody is. But the collective knowledge here, freely shared, has helped all of us grow as collectors & custodians of history.

[HeikoGrusdat]

great wise words stogie...

[VtwinVince]

Quite right, Rick, the collective knowledge on this site is unprecedented. Every day I learn.

[scottplen]

Hello

Stogieman and Guys I was able to get repeat bar of without destroying things! I think repeat bar is real !

but as stogieman said not properlly done on ribbon!

also I studied oak leaf I feel its ok but I don't think i can get it off without ripping things up!

I went over all ribbons underneath (see pics) all are constant and seem to be folded identically and mounted on bar exept for crown order w/red cross device ribbon It is sloppy and is not even sewn into bar but sewn with black thread to red eagle order ribbon and LS award!and sewn into red wool back ! and black thread to tie down crosses were added as camo ! just tucked into wool backing ! I now think that the crown order is a good one but was either

1) was put in place of a missing plain 4th class Crown order

2)was missing ribbon and ribbon was poorly added !

would crown order w/ red cross out rank a red eagle??? and go first? or would it still be behind Red Eagle order

My gut tells me crown order should be a plain 4th class!!!! and this was later embelished ! sewn to bar is plain crown order ribbon as a fastener not special ribbon!

I would like to salvage this bar since I sold my other 1870 non combat bar to you stogieman months ago!!!!! and desided to keep this one!!!

thing that kills me is why did i not see this before !! I guess I get blinders on and just because a got it yrs ago does not mean I should take it for granted it is is correct!!!

check out pics and let me know if i should just pull off crown order or leave as is ! I think i will leave repeat bar off so not to mess up ribbon !

Tell Me what to do to salvage this bar !!! leave alone or remove crown order w/red cross device !@!!!

[scottplen]

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[scottplen]

see how other ribbons are same but crown order is not even sewn with old larger type white tread to bar but just sewn to other ribbons with black thread!!!!

[scottplen]

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[scottplen]

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