Austria-Hungary Austrian uniforms

[Bayern]

Hello : The feldwebel , Ormester , in Hungarian , carries the 1861 model sabre for Infantry officers . Farkas : The Infantry NCo s entitled to carry sabre used the same model of the officers .all metal . certainly existed swords and sabres with leather scabbard , they were for the officials . 

[skippy]

Greetings,

I'm new to this forum.

I have an Astro – Hungarian tunic I believe it could be an early  Feldwebel – Cadet musician tunic from my research. Ca. 1913 the collar insignia changed from celluloid to gold / white etc. metallic lace material.

This is really all I found out of the tunic. There are so many ranks and branch of service it's hard to keep with, I hope somebody could give me more information. The piping’s were at one time a darker blue than shown here.

I stumbled on this site while I was researching this tunic and would like to post it to this forum.

Thank  You

Skip

Edited March 1, 2018 by skippy

[bcalkins]

This is a very nice find Skip! Others can correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like you have a basic tunic for a musician in an infantry regiment. The tunic was made pre 1908. After that, uniforms were made of a lighter blue/gray material called Hechtgrau (pike gray). These dark blue tunics continued to be worn after 1908 since it took many years to implement the change. 

The blue collar and cuff can help narrow down the regiment number, but several regiments used a shade of blue and because of the fading, it may be impossible to figure out the exact regiment number.

This looks like it may be a privately purchased tailor made tunic. This is not uncommon, even for enlisted troops.

Check this site for regimental colors:

http://www.mlorenz.at/Bewaffnete_Macht/Uniformen.htm#Landwehr/Honvéd

I hope this helps.

[Bayern]

Hello : The tunic is the one of a musician Feldwebel ; a German Regiment of the Common Army, Judging by the colour of lace and buttons ,that of the collar and cuffs , probably belonged to the famous Kuk Infanterie Regiment Hoch und Deutschmeister Number 4 . whose colour was Himmelblau , Skyblue.

[skippy]

 

greetings bcalkins and Bayern

Thank you for your responds. I didn't reply sooner as I was down with my health.

I had no idea that the regiment can be identified by the color of the collar, cuffs.  I think that Bayern might be on to something as the collar, cuffs color does match the remaining once light blue on my tunic. Not saying that bcalkins is wrong, his description was in detail and very usable. Yes bcalkins, you are right my tunic is before 1908.

I went a step further and since I know that Germans, Austrians and so fourth are very particular in having the correct historical uniforms for "schuetzen fest - carnival" and so on (as I lived there for some time) I went to Ytube  and looked up the uniform described by Bayern. The same uniform was present  in one of the fests and I could now see what type of full dress uniform was for my tunic with hat and trousers.

They had many Austro - Hungarian uniforms including the "Wiener regiment Number 4" which looked identical to my tunic except the collar, cuffs blue was to dark. There are also old movies from the 40's-50's that have the same coloring as mine. It is worth looking at.

After looking at this I do believe that the tunic is from "Kuk Infantry Regiment Hoch und Deutschmeister Number 4". I however didn't know that Germans carried the same white stars or stars at all on the collar as is on my tunic. I thought this was more of stickily "Austro - Hungarian" thing. I was wrong.

I wish to thank you both for your assistance and time.

Skip

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by skippy

[Bayern]

skippy : The rank stars for NCOs from gefreiter to feldwebel into the Austro hungarian Armies were always white .independently of the button colour. they were made of bone or celluloid , the Officers rank stars were of different nature.

PS I wish you a better health.

[MonteSanto]

Hallo Gentlemen! recently came across this forum and it was quite interesting what you are discussing. I collect Austrian Military items since I am 16, so this is about 41 years. I concentrate on the Austrian Bundesheer, which was out armed Force in the interwar period.

To contribute in your discussion, I give you a few samples of Austrian Rank stars:

1st column: OR, NCO

row1: bone (worn & mint)

row2: celluloid

row3: cardbox

row4: silk

row5: silk with ornaments

2nd column: CO, NCO (OCandidats), State officials

row1: CO "white" (silver, mint& worn)

row2: CO "yellow" ( Gold, both worn)

row 3: metal, Gold-plated (Offiziersstellvertreter, " Master-sergeant(?)")

metal, silver-plated (Fähnrich, ensign)

row 4: State-officials, silver, gold ( "Rosette")

3rd column: Military- officials ("Sternrosette" 4-Rays and 6-rays)

row1: Officer' rank, "yellow" and " white" stitched

row2 + 3: NCO Ranks, Metal plated, silk

row 4 : CO-Ranks (6-rays)

row 5: NCO- ranks, silk ( 6-Rays)

 

I hope you find this useful & I'm looking forward to discussing with you!

greetings from Vienna

 

[MonteSanto]

On 18. September 2017 at 23:11, bcalkins said:

Hmm, I don't know what those sleeve chevrons are for. But those stars look like the enlisted bone/celluloid stars. I don't think they would have reflected so much light if they were the officer style bullion stars.

So if they are indeed enlisted stars, his highest rank could be a Cadet Sergeant.

The chevrons indicate a NCO who is prolonging his duty free-willing. 3 years additional enlistment is indicated by a 13 mm wide golden braid an a second of 6 mm width. So 6 years are one 13 mm and two 6 mm, 9 years one 13 mm and three of 6 mm. Here it ends.

Privates and privates 1st class arme indicated by braids made of yellow silk, 10 mm widme with a centered black stripe of 2 mm. 1 for 3 years, Theo 2 for 6 and 3 for 9 ( maximum). These stripes are also sewn on in the manner, prescribed before and the sample is the same like the indicating stripe for " 1 year's volunteer" (but here radial).

greetings from Vienna

[MonteSanto]

I hope you get my text, because my text programme tries to change my english to german, if I dont pay attention 

[MonteSanto]

On 8. März 2018 at 18:28, skippy said:

 

greetings bcalkins and Bayern

Thank you for your responds. I didn't reply sooner as I was down with my health.

I had no idea that the regiment can be identified by the color of the collar, cuffs.  I think that Bayern might be on to something as the collar, cuffs color does match the remaining once light blue on my tunic. Not saying that bcalkins is wrong, his description was in detail and very usable. Yes bcalkins, you are right my tunic is before 1908.

I went a step further and since I know that Germans, Austrians and so fourth are very particular in having the correct historical uniforms for "schuetzen fest - carnival" and so on (as I lived there for some time) I went to Ytube  and looked up the uniform described by Bayern. The same uniform was present  in one of the fests and I could now see what type of full dress uniform was for my tunic with hat and trousers.

They had many Austro - Hungarian uniforms including the "Wiener regiment Number 4" which looked identical to my tunic except the collar, cuffs blue was to dark. There are also old movies from the 40's-50's that have the same coloring as mine. It is worth looking at.

After looking at this I do believe that the tunic is from "Kuk Infantry Regiment Hoch und Deutschmeister Number 4". I however didn't know that Germans carried the same white stars or stars at all on the collar as is on my tunic. I thought this was more of stickily "Austro - Hungarian" thing. I was wrong.

I wish to thank you both for your assistance and time.

Skip

 

 

Hi Skip, I hope your health is not endangered after reading this:

this tunic is from the stock of " Lambert Hofer of Vienna", a specialist on movie-equipment und for theater. There is a very famous Music band in Austria, which is uniformed like the "house-regiment" of Vienna, the IR 4 " Hoch und Deutschmeister". After WW1 the band became a civil istitution and was very popular until nowadays. Many famous band leaders have been engaged and the band still exists today.

In the first years the wore the original AH uniforms, but they expired more and more an are still encountered.

your item is approximately from the fifties or early sixties of the 20th century. ( Mine: picture 2). Lambert Hofer always got the worn out  tunics for movie- purposes ond indeed, you see them in old Austrian movies. The way of producing is very similar to the old manner, but it lacks the imperial quality because of tailor's Skills and costs. Some indications: the stars are Made of modern plastic like those ones for the Austrian Army after 1955. Even the collar lining ( white sewn-on) is very movie-like. The private made tunics provided usually not the "potato-sack-cotton" like the official army stock( here much finer and with a wide array of stamping and marking ( picture 1), but were lined usually with black cotton (picture 3)

Bayern did well by considering the facing color as " Himmelblau" (sky-Blue), here, because of the bad " after-war-quality" it faded to a similarity of pike gray and are sold at flea-markets to the beginners,  as IR 49 the " Hesser" of Sankt Poelten.

Hope, I could help! 

Greetings

 

[MonteSanto]

Plze notice, that the multiple stamped tunic is original before 1918, that without is the similar " Lambert Hofer" after '45 like Skip's ( Numbers of quoting changed)

my iPad is very hard to handle 

[bcalkins]

MonteSanto,

Welcome to the forum!! That is very interesting information about the tunic.

Do you have an K.u.K. era caps you can post? 

Best regards

[MonteSanto]

19 hours ago, bcalkins said:

MonteSanto,

Welcome to the forum!! That is very interesting information about the tunic.

Do you have an K.u.K. era caps you can post? 

Best regards

Hello bcalcins,

as I am focused on the inter war period, those kuk caps are trading stuff to me, and they always find a new home very quickly. I dont want to bore anybody, so if there is an interest for Austrian bundesheer of the interwar period, I can send some pictures within a few days (due to a busy week).

greetings from Vienna

[Trooper_D]

1 hour ago, MonteSanto said:

so if there is an interest for Austrian bundesheer of the interwar period, I can send some pictures within a few days (due to a busy week).

I, for one, would be very interesting to see information about uniforms for this period, MonteSanto, and I am sure that I am not the only one who will look forward to your photos, as and when you have time.

[Gordon Craig]

I concur with Trooper D and would be willing to contribute as well.

Regards,

Gordon

[MonteSanto]

Thanks for this invitation! tomorrow will be the day, I take time

[bcalkins]

In anticipation of photos from MonteSanto, I will start the ball rolling with some more WWI period caps.

Enjoy!

[Bayern]

A question ,The fourth cap looks as a cavalry one or mounted artillery . but the J1 on the patch puzzles me.Its not Dragoner Husaren or Ulanen . neither Reitende Feldartillerie. what means?

[bcalkins]

The patch is for the 1st feldjager battalion of the common army. While these lagerkappen are often associated with cavalry or artillery troops, they were also popular with infantry troops, especially later in the war. It is dated KR 1917 which means it was made and accepted in Hungary. This seems odd to me since the 1st feldjager battalion was raised in Austria and was a German speaking regiment. I suppose there could be many explanations for this.

[Bayern]

bcalkins : Thanks for your answer, I dont thougt in foot jaegers. in mounted ones yes but the patch doesnt match. Regarding to the 1st Feldjager , according with Lorenz , the ethnicity was 62 per cent Germans 26 pc Czechs and 2 per cent others, Perhaps after the reorganistion of the year 1917 the Battallion was merged with a Hungarian one

[1812 Overture]

This is a photo I took when I was gathering with friends. For security reasons, some of my badges were fake. Hats and belts are original. My clothes are made by myself. The degree of restoration is not good.

The party we attended did not include original badges to avoid unnecessary damage.

 

[Trooper_D]

4 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

This is a photo I took when I was gathering with friends. 

Welcome to GMIC, 1812 Overture. I am sure that you are going to enjoy this site as much as we will enjoy your postings.

May I ask what was the occasion when you and your friends were wearing these uniforms, and where?

[1812 Overture]

18 hours ago, Trooper_D said:

Welcome to GMIC, 1812 Overture. I am sure that you are going to enjoy this site as much as we will enjoy your postings.

May I ask what was the occasion when you and your friends were wearing these uniforms, and where?

Thank you for your reply. The first three photos were taken in Beijing. On the first week of each week in December, we will hold such an event in Beijing, and there will be military collectors in various countries. Behind me was a film shoot in Shanghai. I'm very glad to meet you. I don't know if I can't open this site someday, so I cherish every opportunity.

Film location

 

[Farkas]

Hi Gents

just been catching up on this thread....

It reminds me how much there is to learn....

thanks all

tony

[eurorders]

Here is an Austrian shako cap I bought, along with oilskin dustcover and original case.