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Shush. Don't let ANYONE know about that auction. Too much pretty stuff. :rolleyes:

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Gentlemen,

that's really an incredible offer - never seen such a catalouge before :jumping: .

The prices are extremly low - are these starting prices, estimates or what :unsure: ?????

What's the buyer's premium and the additional costs (taxes, insurance, shipping etc.) :unsure: ?

What about the quality of the items, what are fakes :unsure: ?

Italy is a rather uncommon place for such an auction .... :rolleyes:

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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The estimates are just right, maybe too high, they really are, the prices won't go any higher than these estimates. Say it often. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

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The estimates are just right, maybe too high, they really are, the prices won't go any higher than these estimates. Say it often. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dear Ed,

despite the global crisis of capitalism, there is (still) too much money in Russia and the auction results of big fine arts auctions the last weeks ago in Europe are skyrocketing (these are "real values" - as Soviet awards are ... :rolleyes: ).

So I am a bit sceptical about moderate results of the Italian auction ;) .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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I think Ed's just trying to get us to think positively. If we visualize low prices and concentrate really really hard perhaps the medal fairies will take pitty on us poor non Russians who can't afford the market value of most of these lovelies offered. I can see it now......

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I think Ed's just trying to get us to think positively. If we visualize low prices and concentrate really really hard perhaps the medal fairies will take pitty on us poor non Russians who can't afford the market value of most of these lovelies offered. I can see it now......

EXACTLY!!

Clap if you believe in low prices.

Righttttttt! :speechless:

What this means in terms of the economic meltdown will be interesting, even if we can't play with the Big Boys. (So what do we expect? 3X or 4X the estimates? From UK auctions I usually rely on 2.5X, but, here, odd place, bad moment, . . . ???)

Edited by Ed_Haynes

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I have my own :unsure: agents out--like the Nine Nazg?l-- and this may be quite indicative of where things are going with foreign investments inbound naturally shut down while the new management replaces the old, old, rust encrusted ferrous draperies.

I've been saying this all along, but it is clinically insane for James Bond super-villain wannabes to have EVER wasted real currency on items like this when they COULD have been literally buying small tropical island countries.

Now even that's likely unlikely with the Giggling Fartsmeller strutting and preening like a scrawny Mussolini.

Market forces have come up thump against hard political realities.

It will be interesting for Mere Mortals to watch. :rolleyes:

We may just hear what a great big empty bubble sounds like, popping. :catjava:

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Ha ha - estimates....

Some of those prices are from three years back....

That's all they are.... estimates.... alas.

Jim

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Between rising ODM prices and Putin's medal watchdogs they've come close to killing our hobby!

What will be next....?

:speechless1:

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check out this online catalog for an upcoming auction in Italy:

http://www.sangiorgioaste.com/cataloghi-online/cat_a6.html

Gentlemen,

I had a closer look at the Soviet section of the catalog.

They say, that a hughe collection of a (former?) Italian diplomat, who stayed in the 1990s in Moscow, Dr. Antonia Benedetto Spada, is going to be sold on the 22nd of november 2008 in Genoa, Italy.

1) Terms of sale:

"As to the authenticity and attribution of the auctioned articles, San Giorgio undertakes no responsibility since our Firm only acts as an agent without representation of the owners of the auctioned goods and has no rights or obligations of its own.

Any dispute on this subject shall be first of all settled on a scientific base between a consulting expert of San Giorgio and an export of the same professional level designated by the customer and shall be raised within 8 days after adjudication. Upon expiry of this term, no dispute or claim will be possible. Any claim recognized as being valid will only be settled by reimbursement of the actually paid amount with the exclusion of any further demand."

This dosen't sound sooooo good .... :rolleyes:

2) Extra costs:

You have to add to the hammer price 18 % buyers premium, + VAT (around 20 % in the EU), + custom fees (for outside of the EU) and + shipment, insurance etc. Quite some extra costs are waiting .... :rolleyes:

3) Information policy:

- Almost NO written information at all about the items - specially NO serial numbers are listed.

- Only pics of the av. - NO rv. photographs - NO details from different angels of view (as Igor does).

Well, that's not serious at all :mad: .

4) Quality of items:

I am not sure, if all items are genuine (i.e.: Motherland 1cl & 2cl and a few others) .... :unsure:

5) Prices:

They are rather strange:

- Common items are rather expensive :speechless1: .

- Rare items are either far beyond the usual market prices, or represent just the current market situation. In most cases (rare items), they show estimates of three years ago, as Jim already pointed out :speechless: .

Just my impressions ....

Best regards :beer:

Christian

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Hello,

thank you for the interesting comments about the "Red Auction" to be held in Genova, the coming Nov. 22nd.

I've written the catalogue for that sale and, please believe me, it has been a strong effort.

The Dr. Spada Collection is one of the best known and greatest private collections of phaleristic and the "Socialist" part of it, has been given to us for sale. This section has been put together in the mid-80s and in the months when the Warsaw Pact was falling apart. I know this "Socialist" collection since the days when it was put together and I need to say that I've been feeling honoured to catalogue it, although the end of this work would be its dispersion.

The "Treasures" of his collection, with outstanding pieces from all over Europe and Overseas, are going to be on exhibit at the National Museum of the Legion of Honour in Paris, France, from Nov. 19th on.

I am sorry if the catalogue hasn't been illustrated in a "scientifical" way, with micro-details, reverse detail, serial nos., etc.: yes, that would have been the best, but especially for reasons discussed in this forum too, the Auction House decided not to publish certain details; details that can be given to those prospective buyers that would request for a condition report and/or further detailed pictures (besides that, the online-catalogue's pictures can be strongly enlarged and this is a good help already).

The sale's terms and conditions: they are like those of most other auction houses, also where the originality of items is discussed. Of course, if any piece would be detected as a counterfeit, the purchaser will be refunded, in the same way and under the same guarantees as it happens for any European auction house.

The starting price is the lower estimate price (if a piece has an estimation of ? 1.000/1.500 the sale will start at 1.000) and the final price will be formed by the hammer-price plus buyer's premium (18%); the V.A.T. (20%) is calculated on the buyer's premium only; that means a total of the 21,6% to be added to the hammer-price. Non EU residents are exempt of V.A.T. Of course, if the purchaser needs the pieces be sent to his address, handling, shipping and insurance have to be added.

Please excuse me for this long and nearly-bureaucratic post, but I think that I should have given some clarifying details. I've been offline (and off-work) for many weeks, due to personal reasons, this is why I haven't been able to participate to this interesting discussion earlier.

From now on, I'll be glad to give any further detail and information (also those not illustrated in the catalogue!...).

I always find precious the opinions and critics from fellows collectors and colleagues.

Best wishes,

Enzo Calabresi

(San Giorgio - Orders & Decorations Dept.)

Office's Email: info@sangiorgioaste.com

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Dear Enzo,

congratulations to your outstanding job, handling the sale of this breathtaking Soviet collection :cheers: .

Many thanks for your further explainations and the possibility to get more detailed pics on demand :cheers: .

Please inform the GMIC-community a.s.a.p. about the auction results and hammer prices of at least some key items and lots - many thanks in advance :D .

BTW: To collect these items in the 1980s wasn't that cheap affair, as in the 1990s, I guess :unsure: ?

All the best for your auction :beer:

Christian

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Dear Christian, dear all,

thank you for your kind words.

Of course, I'll keep everyone informed about any news regarding our "Red" sale, also in the case where we wouldn't sell one single lot.

Yes, back in the 80s, collecting Soviet Orders wasn't as cheap as in the early-mid 90s, but if a collector is a passionate historian and strongly wants something...

Besides the Soviet Union, that has its special place in the market and the first in our catalogue, I find also highly interesting the orders and decorations of the other Socialist countries, like the very well made pieces from Czechoslovakia or the "intricate" and intriguing honour system of Albania, just to give a few examples.

Best wishes,

Enzo

Edited by Elmar Lang

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Dear Ed,

despite the global crisis of capitalism, there is (still) too much money in Russia and the auction results of big fine arts auctions the last weeks ago in Europe are skyrocketing (these are "real values" - as Soviet awards are ... :rolleyes: ).

So I am a bit sceptical about moderate results of the Italian auction ;) .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Gentlemen,

This is very interesting. Has the bubble burst? I do not think so, but I would like to offer a couple of observations.

First, I saw somewhere (I think that it was on the other forum) that the prices of Lenin Orders, in US$, has dropped noticeably of late. I think that part of the reason for this lies in the phrase ?in US$? because the US$ has gained considerable strength against many other currencies such as the Euro (18%+) and British ? (25%) in the past year or so. For this reason, it is helpful if we keep things in the native currency, usually Euros, whenever possible.

Next, I was present at the Andreas Thies auction on 31 October and, in my opinion, bidding by the Russian clients was solid at best; but certainly lacked the enthusiasm and competition seen in recent years - lethargic at best.

With regard to art auctions, Sotheby's season opener was hardly a roaring success. The following article -

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jF5H7HE...gp-icAD948LBIG3

alludes to the lack of enthusiastic Russian bidders. Another article, which I cannot find at the moment, is less charitable. It is no secret that in the art world, taken as a whole, the Russian so-called collectors are more often looked upon with amusement than disdain. Sound familiar?

Regards,

Wild Card

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Dear Wild Card,

many thanks for your interesting observations :cheers: .

I don't see, that there is anything like a "bubble" in our market - just the ordinary supply & demand mechanism. BTW: There is also no "bubble" in the market for ultra-luxurious housing (flats, estates etc.), where the prices are still at ultra-high level.

Your important observation: It seems, that the basic currency in our market is the EURO and not the USD.

That explains, why the price for a 08/15-Lenin is constant in EURO, but dropped in USD.

The market for old & classic art (paintings etc.) is - at least in Vienna (a lot of Russian people have their residences in the city!) flourishing.

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Gentlemen,

This is very interesting. Has the bubble burst? I do not think so, but I would like to offer a couple of observations.

First, I saw somewhere (I think that it was on the other forum) that the prices of Lenin Orders, in US$, has dropped noticeably of late. I think that part of the reason for this lies in the phrase ?in US$? because the US$ has gained considerable strength against many other currencies such as the Euro (18%+) and British ? (25%) in the past year or so. For this reason, it is helpful if we keep things in the native currency, usually Euros, whenever possible.

Next, I was present at the Andreas Thies auction on 31 October and, in my opinion, bidding by the Russian clients was solid at best; but certainly lacked the enthusiasm and competition seen in recent years - lethargic at best.

With regard to art auctions, Sotheby's season opener was hardly a roaring success. The following article -

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jF5H7HE...gp-icAD948LBIG3

alludes to the lack of enthusiastic Russian bidders. Another article, which I cannot find at the moment, is less charitable. It is no secret that in the art world, taken as a whole, the Russian so-called collectors are more often looked upon with amusement than disdain. Sound familiar?

Regards,

Wild Card

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Hello,

in the past months, I've heard everything about the "decline and fall of Russian buying enthusiasm". At the Gunzenhausen show, my colleague and I had to listen to dark previews and statements like "Russians are pennyless now"; "it's the end of the market"; "all recent auctions have been a disaster", and so on.

I've been present in person at the Tammann sale held at the UBS in Basel, Switzerland, the past week. Besides the fine quality of the pieces offered for sale and the perfect assistance given to us customers from the auction's personnel and especially the expert who wrote the catalogue (this helps a lot!), I've seen the active and highly interested participation of many buyers from Russia and the Eastern Europe. The Russian pieces have seen the usual "fight" to give them a new owner and bids rose to excellent hammer prices; the same happened to Bulgaria, Serbia, etc..

Like anything not necessary to everyday's life, we cannot expect that prices would restless rise up to the space: the collecting market has a "wave" movement where a decrease of prices is always followed by an increase of interest (and prices, as a consequence).

In my opinion, quality pieces never loose either interest or their public of enthusiasts.

kind regards,

Enzo Calabresi

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Hello,

to help collectors and researchers, my colleagues and I are preparing the pictures of the reverse side of many Soviet Orders & Decorations: these pictures shall be put in the online catalogue as soon as possible. The pictures can also be enlarged thank to the zoom option, in order to better see any important detail.

For any further detail and information I'll be available at the office's email and of course here, if the question could also be interesting and useful to the community of collectors and enthusiasts.

Sincerely,

Enzo Calabresi

(Auction House San Giorgio)

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Gentlemen,

With regard to art auctions, Sotheby's season opener was hardly a roaring success. The following article -

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jF5H7HE...gp-icAD948LBIG3

alludes to the lack of enthusiastic Russian bidders. Another article, which I cannot find at the moment, is less charitable. It is no secret that in the art world, taken as a whole, the Russian so-called collectors are more often looked upon with amusement than disdain. Sound familiar?

Regards,

Wild Card

An update. A bad situation seems to be getting worse.

http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/29454/sothebys-reports-additional-106m-in-losses/

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=a_LUO3d0W_7I&refer=muse

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122670620372529693.html

We shall see.

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I just got in hand the paper catalogue for the San Giorgio auction. Words fail me. :love::speechless1:

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Glory full cavalier set at Enzo's auction

Gentlemen,

I have checked the serial numbers of this set at MIR NAGRAD http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...;ич and the entry says, that the 3 Glories had been awarded to comrade Vasily Aleksandrovich Kazakov (Василий Александрович Казаков). All the serial numbers are correct.

According to POBEDITELI http://www.pobediteli.ru/russia/povolzhye/...ya/k/index.html comrade Kazakov was borne on the 4th of March 1924, so he received his Glories as a rather young man.

Enzo shows only two pages of the cavalier's booklet to us and so it's not possible, to make out the exact category (according to the classification of slava1stclass) of the set.

The estimate of the set is - according to my humble opinion - at the current market level, I guess :unsure: : Full cavalier sets of the top categories are extremly rare and the Order of Glory is something very special in the history of the GPW.

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Edited by Christian Zulus

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Glory 1cl s/n. 265 at Enzo's auction

Gentlemen,

I have checked the serial number of this item at MIR NAGRAD http://www.mirnagrad.ru/cgi-bin/exinform.c...idimg=035ab.jpg and the entry says, that the Glory 1cl had been awarded to comrade Jakov Seliverstovich Klimenko (Яков Селиверстович Клименко).

Историческая справка:

КЛИМЕНКО Яков Селиверстович, род. в 1921 в с. Боровка ныне Макаровского р-на Киев обл. в семье крестьянина. Украинец. Член КПСС с 1943. Окончил 7 классов, курсы водителей. Работал в г. Новоград-Волынский Житомир, обл. В Кр. Армии с мая 1941. С началом Вел. Отеч. войны на фронте. Мех.-водитель танка Т-34 91-й танк, бригады (9-й мех. корпус, 3-я гв. танк, армия, 1-й Укр. фронт) ст. сержант К. в составе экипажа 18?20.7.44 в бою у с. Сасов (Золочевский р-н Львов, обл.) подавил пушку пр-ка, миномет, батарею, 3 пулемет, точки, разбил 6 автомобилей с боеприпасами, 7 повозок, истребил большое кол-во враж. солдат и офицеров. 12.8.44 нагр. орд. Славы 3 ст. 27.01.45 К. с экипажем в бою за нас. пункт Орнонтовице (13 км юго-зап. г. Глейвиц ? ныне Гливице, Польша) подбил 2 танка и 2 БТР. Гусеницами танка уничтожил 5 орудий, 3 пулемет, точки, 10 автомобилей, 4 повозки с боеприпасами и воен. имуществом, 3 мотоцикла и вывел из строя св. 20 гитлеровцев. 7.3.45 нагр. орд. Славы 2 ст. В боях 16.4?8.5.45, умело управляя танком при прорыве обороны пр-ка на подступах к Берлину, а также в уличных боях, огнем и гусеницами уничтожил много живой силы и техники пр-ка. 27.6.45 нагр. орд. Славы 1 ст. В 1945 демобилизован. Вернулся в родное село. Работал пред. колхоза. Нагр. орд. Отечественной войны 2 ст., Красной Звезды, медалями. Умер в апр. 1956.

The estimate of the item is again - according to my humble opinion - at the current market level, I guess :unsure: .

Best regards :beer:

Christian

Edited by Christian Zulus

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Hello Christian,

thank you for the important and fine details of the Glory Orders in our auction.

I've put the details with the lots, to give more info to collectors.

I understand: I should have given more, more and more details, both in the catalogue and online. To my excusation there is the difficulty to write as fast as possible (by myself and alone, although with the invaluable help of many people of this Forum too, to identify obscure pieces...) a 1310 lots catalogue. The result is a finely illustrated book and, hopefully, a successful sale.

As said, I'm always at disposal, to give all the possible details.

Best wishes,

Enzo Calabresi

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