Soviet 1920's order of the red banner

[Bob]

Perhaps, but I'll pass on this one. For fun, i'll request the research from Russian archives anyway.

If anybody on the board would like to acquire the item (and I'll throw the research - if any - in for free) just PM me and I'll help to facilitate it (the asking price is NOT low).

[Ed_Haynes]

It would be interesting to know the number of Sukhbaatar's ORB (in the UB museum) or Choibalsan's (once in a a known location, but now??). What if the numbers were 5 or 6 numberrs away from this??

The best picture I have of Sukhbaatar's. Not very helpful.

[Bob]

To clarify a point, the seller indicated he'd not want it back if it was sent for expertise and deemed a fake because - here it comes - he'd not know for sure if he might then be getting a very good fake back.

Which (circular logic, I know) implies he doesn't really know if he's selling a fake or not now either.

I do not know for sure (of course) if it's a fake, all I'm doing is passing on this one. As mentioned, happy to help anybody else get this one and I'm getting the research (if possible) anyway so hopefully we can read more on this later.

[Bob]

It would be interesting to know the number of Sukhbaatar's ORB (in the UB museum) or Choibalsan's (once in a a known location, but now??). What if the numbers were 5 or 6 numberrs away from this??

The best picture I have of Sukhbaatar's. Not very helpful.

Mmm a good reason for you to return to Mongolia and for a lot of the rest of us to finally visit it

I was told there were 4 mongolians who received a red banner at the same ceremony... who knows...

[Ed_Haynes]

Not always easy to tell from the photos of them in wear (decades later) which someone got (RFSR or CCCP).

Here are four. And Sukhbaatar was dead by then! And in 1931, they'd all be RFSR. As I may have said, the location of Choibalsan's is (was?) known, Demid's went walkabout after his unfortunate "death", . . . others???

Edited May 3, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

And there are, literally, tons of photos in the archives!

[Bob]

Your posts are tempting me again Ed More to "know" the story and if it's real than to "have it" in my own hands actually.

Wish I could (sounds like an old Twilight Zone episode) freeze time, walkk into the Mongolian archives and spend at least a few days just "browsing" :cheeky:

[Bob]

And there are, literally, tons of photos in the archives!

Perhaps some of that stuff (or at least similar) finds it's way to ebay (just check right now, for instance) :rolleyes:

[Bob]

Got more scans in.

Ed, I think my guy is the guy on the right of your picture...

Oh, and notice the dress again... perhaps a "member of parliament" dress?

Edited May 6, 2009 by Bob

[Ed_Haynes]

Very VERY interesting. He was a Biggie!!!!!!!!

[Bob]

Yep, and those are not all "long service" awards for him :rolleyes:

[Ed_Haynes]

Oh, and notice the dress again... perhaps a "member of parliament" dress?

No, just a normal deel.

[Ferdinand]

Ed, I think my guy is the guy on the right of your picture...

Could very well be... His name is D. Sodnomdarzhaa.

[Bob]

I'll be dripping some more bits and pieces into this thread during the coming weeks...

First: "Sodnomdarjaa, one of the most famous Partisans of 1921 and the leader of a raid, several years later, into a no-man's-land..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=wMBxAAAAM...H-AQ&pgis=1

Sounds like an interesting book, so have ordered it via ABE.com

[Bob]

I'll be dripping some more bits and pieces into this thread during the coming weeks...

First: "Here I met a man, old and sick, sitting with his faced turned gratefully to the sun, the breast of his blue gown covered with medals. To my intense interest, he was Sodnomdarjaa, one of the most famous Partisans of 1921 and the leader of a raid, several years later, into a no-man's-land..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=wMBxAAAAM...H-AQ&pgis=1

Sounds like an interesting book, so have ordered it via ABE.com

[Bob]

http://books.google.com/books?id=49hwAAAAM...dash&pgis=1

Although the russian archives might not want to share anything, I hope in coming weeks to be able to paint a much more specific picture on who our guy is.

Will have a look in the blue bible (containing Mongolian bio's) tomorrow as well as he should be in there... this is going to get more and more interesting.

[Bob]

Would greatly appreciate some translation help - this is I believe an additional document relating to the red banner.

Happy to provide a larger file via email to anybody who'd be willing and able to provide some translation help.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Bob

[Ed_Haynes]

Muddy xerox, but INTERESTING!

[Bob]

Apparently all in all 17 Orders of the Red Banner were awarded to Mongolians (I'm not sure if this means "ever" or just of the early orders or... ). This specific one in this thread was part of an awarding of 4 Red Banners to key Mongolian revolutionary leaders. Ed's picture posted earlier should provide an interesting clue...

Once I've got everything in my hands, I'll be posting quite a bit more and by then perhaps this thread should move to "researched awards" or in fact to the Mongolia forum (I know, it's a soviet award... but still )

[fjcp]

Bob, I had my wife take a look and the document says the usual stuff...

Defender socialist state or ideals etc. The state awards him this award etc.

The real interesting bit she could read though...the typed stuff in the middle.

Could you please send me a higher quality file of it to see what she can make of it?

Ok now for the somewhat exciting bit....

The signature is from somebody rather special.

Perhaps you've heard of him,

Kliment Voroshilov!!!!!

Here is his signature on an interesting document I have...

Enjoy.

JC

[Bob]

Bob, I had my wife take a look and the document says the usual stuff...

Defender socialist state or ideals etc. The state awards him this award etc.

The real interesting bit she could read though...the typed stuff in the middle.

Could you please send me a higher quality file of it to see what she can make of it?

Ok now for the somewhat exciting bit....

The signature is from somebody rather special.

Perhaps you've heard of him,

Kliment Voroshilov!!!!!

Here is his signature on an interesting document I have...

Enjoy.

JC

Yep, apparently Voroshilov personally presented the 4 Red Banners during a visit to Mongolia. I'm hoping to receive a photograph of this.

Please PM me your email address and will send a better scan.

[Bob]

Another picture (enlarged, but his red banner - both russian and mongolian - are clear)... more to come

[Stogieman]

I've been following this one. Very exciting!!

[Bob]

Sodnomdarja's awards are:

Russian:

Order of Red Banner

Victory over Japan Medal (not 100% sure)

Mongolian:

Order of Sukhbaatar (2x)

Order of Red Banner for Labour Valor

Order of Red Banner for Combat Valor

Order of Combat Merit

Honorary Medal of Combat (2x)

Polar Star (2x)

Medal We Won

Medal 25 Years of MPR

Deputy badge (not 100% sure)

Badge for 15th Anniversary of the Mongolian Revolution

I'll be posting pics of his orders booklets soon. What's interesting to note is that the dates for above awards suggest that his Mongolian Red Banner for Combat Valor and 2x Medal of Combat were actually awarded for combat operations. The Order of Red Banner for Combat Valor for instance has a date of 1921 in his orders book... (presumably implying 1931).

Edited May 8, 2009 by Bob

[Bob]

Had dinner with two Russian ladies this evening, good moment to get a translation of the document Will have to try to get a better copy as the most important part of the text is illegible.

"Revolutionary Military Committee of the USSR

The Central Executive Committee of the USSR rewards Sodnom-Darja for special distinctio in combat against the enemies of the socialist motherland xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Order of the Red Banner, symbol of the socialist revolution.

To confirm the above, this certificate is given by the Revolutionary Military Committee of the USSR and this certificate is issued.

Peoples Komissar of Military & Marine Affairs of the Revolutionary Military Committee of the USSR,

K. Voroshilov"

the 'xxxxx' is a small but important piece of text which is poorly legible. I'll try to play with it to make it readable.