Lippe-Detmold

[Guest Rick Research]

161... and counting. But like I say, doubtful a Lippe native wore that. Here are a few Prussians to scractch off, extra data for the Bemerkungen column of the SVMs--

Baatz, WILHELM. KrzAEz(1904), AEz (82), XXI, 70/71, OEK1, SA4 etc etc--see Ordens-Almanach entry for him

Heberer, WILHELM: thought I had him! KrzAEz (1905), AEz (1898) but no EK2 1870

Pook: no 1st name (dead before 1905, after 1895): AEz-Gold (1891), AEz (1888). Doesn't show his LpD-SVM returned, but the Prusssians must have gotten theirs back to have dropped him from the 1905 Ordensliste.

It may take looking up all the remaining suspects--many of whom have no first names--in the 1870 EK2 list. This can be delegated to small children who get no supper if they do not meet quota for gnome work done!

[Solomon]

Hi Rick,

thank you so far...as I already mentioned...this is not going to be easy.

I already did the cross check with the EK2 1870 list last year (my son is just learning reading and writing....so I will have one or two more years).

But guys like "Meyer" made it impossible.

BR

Roman

[Solomon]

Hi Rick,

can you check the following guy for me?

Heinrich Hilker, born in 1848...sVM and EK2 1870 as Gefreiter im Garde Schützen Regiment I was able to find.

BR

Roman

[Guest Rick Research]

Not him-- no Pr KrzAEZ or AEz

[Solomon]

Thank you...I´m already down at around 35 candidates (I erased all Lakai and guys, which were born after 1847 plus the guys from Lippe-Detmold).

In addition I cancelled awards after 1905, because the silver merit medal is definitely an early award made by Büsch and the early thick medal type.

But still more than one potential candidate left (So far I skipped the guys, whch didn´t appear with their first name in the rolls):

Phillip Krug (two entries with the same name in the EK-list)

Friedrich Luchte

and my favorite Gustav Meier (Sek. Lieutnant Jaeger Bat. No. 9).

But none of them I was able to find in the Almanach 1904-1905...so either they died before or none of them was the former owner.

It remains tricky...

Best regards

Roman

[Dave Danner]

Can anyone confirm the class of award for Johannes Lutze? His personnel file says he received the "Ehrenkr. IV.Kl. 1.Abt. m.S. d. Lipp.Hausordens" on 10. November 1918. This would appear to be the LDH4aX. But Lutze was a Lt. in IR 54, previously in RIR 267, when the award was made. As a Leutnant, wouldn't he have received more likely the LDH4bX? He previously received the Lippisches KVK on 4.3.18.

Thanks,

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

Naughty man was making things up--or had a "retroactive" post-war award. Not on the Rolls, at all. There was a massive flood of decorations--often of dubious appropriateness--on 11 November 1918. The clerk's handwriting was all over--either from the strain of too much writing with war-Ersatz ink or from the emotion of having his world erased that day.

We don't have post-11/11/18 rolls. Those remain in the family's possession as dynastic rather than State records. Returns are shown, but not new awards.

WW2 awards (!!!!) as Solomon has shown in photos were often insanely inappropriate-- I recall a Leutnant with Officer grade pinback!

[Solomon]

Can anyone confirm the class of award for Johannes Lutze? His personnel file says he received the "Ehrenkr. IV.Kl. 1.Abt. m.S. d. Lipp.Hausordens" on 10. November 1918. This would appear to be the LDH4aX. But Lutze was a Lt. in IR 54, previously in RIR 267, when the award was made. As a Leutnant, wouldn't he have received more likely the LDH4bX? He previously received the Lippisches KVK on 4.3.18.

Thanks,

Dave

Hi Dave,

the LDH4bX is the civil honour cross, so a LDH4aX makes much more sense. It is quite interesting, that he also got the KVK quite late.

Best regards

Roman

[Dave Danner]

Naughty man was making things up--or had a "retroactive" post-war award. Not on the Rolls, at all. There was a massive flood of decorations--often of dubious appropriateness--on 11 November 1918. The clerk's handwriting was all over--either from the strain of too much writing with war-Ersatz ink or from the emotion of having his world erased that day.

We don't have post-11/11/18 rolls. Those remain in the family's possession as dynastic rather than State records. Returns are shown, but not new awards.

WW2 awards (!!!!) as Solomon has shown in photos were often insanely inappropriate-- I recall a Leutnant with Officer grade pinback!

Well, he did affirm on his sacred honor that he got it, so there's that. His Schwarzburgisches Ehrenkreuz is in the rolls (he was a native). By the way, this "nach pflichtmäßiger Meldung" notation below is extremely common, especially for E-Offiziere. Their application package to be recalled to military service usually included a Militär-Dienstbescheinigung or an Auzgug aus der Kriegsrangliste. However, these often did not include post-November 1918 awards. So sometimes the officer provided other documentation - copy of the Verleihungsurkunde, for example - but otherwise they just affirmed it. I've only come across one officer who underwent an Ehrenverfahren for falsely claiming WW1 awards (in that case, a gold wound badge).

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah, but it states in parantheses that the award was purely on HIS say so. (Odd that should also be the case for his wound badge--surely hospitalization record is in there... or not?).

He may have ben considered for it, but given the rush of his other 1918 awards, I doubt one would have gone through anyway, given lack of time between his LKr and EK1.

Be interesting to see if he WORE one--because where would he have GOTTEN one from?

Interesting indeed.

[Mike Dwyer]

As always, unbelievably great stuff!!!!

[Dave Danner]

Ah, but it states in parantheses that the award was purely on HIS say so. (Odd that should also be the case for his wound badge--surely hospitalization record is in there... or not?).

He may have ben considered for it, but given the rush of his other 1918 awards, I doubt one would have gone through anyway, given lack of time between his LKr and EK1.

Be interesting to see if he WORE one--because where would he have GOTTEN one from?

Interesting indeed.

He was an active-duty Wehrmacht officer for ten years, so I imagine he would have had more than enough opportunities to wear a Feldspange and at least a few to wear a große Ordensspange. So I suppose the issue for us is only partly whether he earned it, and more whether, as you note, he wore it. We may have to include him in our Lippe-Detmold lists with an asterisk, but we have to include him, since if we come across a Feldspange with that combination, he would have to be a candidate.

Similar to General der Flieger Ludwig Wolff, who is not in the Schwarzburg rolls, but shows up with an SEK3X.

[Dave Danner]

How about this for a short gap between awards? One week.

[Guest Rick Research]

Can't imagine how that would have happened. There were no "official" awards after 11.11.18--I think there's just some sort of MESS with the record keeping (NOT by Detmold!)

for some reason something else--NOT a Lippe Honor Cross--was meant and the clerk dutifully copied out a correct designation for some other entry that was wrong.

The Detmold rolls are unambiguous and... final. Tis a great mystery!!!

[Dave Danner]

At this point, there are way too many to be simply errors. There must have been a fairly large number of retroactively dated awards by the formerly ruling house. As it was a house order, not a state order, they did have the authority to award it after the abdication, though of course the state had no obligation to recognize it. Indeed, still existing houses continue to award their house orders, sometimes in really dubious circumstances (House of Anhalt, I am looking at you).

But as we have seen with the Ernestine House Order, among others, the Third Reich and to some extent the Weimar Republic were fairly accommodating to their old princes. Even in the case of one order which was not a house order, the Military Order of Max Joseph, the Weimar Republic gave some degree of recognition to all the late-processed MMJO awards and name changes to "Ritter von".

So whether or not someone manages to convince whoever heads the house to release their personnel roles or records, so we can confirm just when and under what circumstances the house order was awarded, I do think we have to include these awards, with an asterisk or some other notation.

These were for the most part highly decorated officers who do not appear to have had any reason to simply make things up. They weren't guys at the local bar making up tall stories, but active officers. And dubiously awarded or not, they would have had ample opportunities to wear their awards, so ribbon bars or groups may show up, and we need to know who these guys were to help ID them.

I've already posted above the file extract for Oberst Johannes Lutze. The snippet I just posted was from the file of Generalleutnant Werner Hühner. And there was also Werner's older brother, Oberst Eberhard Hühner.

What about these guys, who also don't seem to have an obvious Lippe connection, but show up in Reichswehr and/or Wehrmacht records with Lippe House Orders? Are they on the official roll?

• General der Infanterie Alexander von Hartmann

• Oberst Oskar Karkowski

• General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Knochenhauer

• Generalleutnant z.V. Hans Knuth

• Generalleutnant Gerd Scherbening

It may be worth noting that four of these officers - both Hühners, Karkowski and Scherbening - came out of the same regiment, IR 51, though they had a variety of wartime assignments.

Regards,

Dave

[Dave Danner]

OK, how about this one?

Perhaps a pattern is appearing. The formerly ruling house of Lippe-Detmold made a number of retroactive awards, dated 12.11.18, the day of Leopold IV's abdication. For those who did not have a prior lower Lippe war decoration, another award was given, dated one week prior for convenience's sake. Or maybe all these 5.11.18 LKs were awarded then, in a rush as it looked like their world was coming to an end. Or maybe the LKs were after the war too. Lippe appears to have continued to award war decorations (Kriegsehrenkreuz für heldenmütige Tat, Kriegsverdienstkreuz and Kriegsehrenmedaille) through 1922.

For what it's worth, the officer in question was a Hauptmann and battalion commander in Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 4 at the time of all these awards.

[Solomon]

Hi Gents,

here is my latest purchase...unfortunately without a name. It is a nic NCO-medalbar, maybe a "Sanitaeter" or even a doctor.

I hope you like it.

BR

Roman

[Guest Rick Research]

Dave-- that last entry makes NO sense at all. TWO Honor Cross awards... a week apart????? OFFICER class to a Hauptmann, non-native...impossible!

Something was dreadfully, dreadfully screwy with those entries. I can't call them "awards" without seeing actual evidence of the claimants wearing them.

The Rolls do not support any of those. Some clerk repeating abbreviations incorrectly? Or crazy entries for... Schaumburg?

Schaumburg awarded no Honor Crosses with swords during the war. I have, however, been forwarded award documents from 1919... and yet the officer in the 1919 Schaumburg case... never appears in any photo WEARING his "paperwork."

These entries make me think of June 1945 POW camp "awards" of Knight's Crosses.

[Solomon]

Here is another nice batch, not shown yet...."Feuerwehrehrenzeichen 25 Jahre Lippe-Detmold".

Believe it or not, for this award no clear rolls exists...sad but true!

BR

Roman

[Guest Rick Research]

Would that appear in the Hof- und Staaatshandbücher? At least by the individual people who had it rather than a Roll?

[rujab]

Schönes und seltenes Feuerwehr Abzeichen

Klasse

Gruss

Rudi

[Solomon]

Would that appear in the Hof- und Staaatshandbücher? At least by the individual people who had it rather than a Roll?

Difficult to say...I had the complete archive-file of this batch in my hands...it was just a MESS ! A lot of lists with names, partly crossed, partly awardlists, partly only suggestions.

I know two guys, who are planning to create the rolls, but I seriously warned them, due to the chaotic file.

Even my dear friend Reiner Schwark just guessed the number of awards...

BR

Roman

[Deruelle]

Hi everybody,

 

Her is new medal from Lippe Detmold :

Erinnerungsmedaille an den erstrittenen Thronanspruch 1905

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Deruelle

[Beau Newman]

I thought I would revive this topic with this little mini chain.  The center award appears to be a 2nd Type Leopold Order, 3rd Class.  The Red Eagle 4th is not unusual but, the Russian 1904/05 Red Cross medal is.  With so few of the Leopolds awarded and the unusual Russian connection, is an ID possible?

[graham]

Nice set Beau.

 

My mini Warrior Cross: