Bundesrepublik The new "Iron Cross"

[Hugh]

QUOTE (TacHel @ May 29 2009, 03:50 )

--LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT-- --LOGIC ALERT--

JimZ is right... But still, interesting debate.

Just making sure we do get lost in the debate after having lost track of what is supposed to be what!!!

Seen some of the latest russian medals? - Forget the cheap Umalatova awards - New Russia's awards are nothing much to write home about.

Seems to me that today, some governments fail to place any importance on the medals they award the people who serve or risk limb and life for their country. Medals have just become trinkets and seem to be losing the social importance they had a hundred, even fifty odd years ago. Perhaps this attitude is simply being reflected in the manufacture of medals. A pity indeed if this is the case.

Rick, thanks for your last comment particularly as it answered something which has long since bothered me - why isn't the 1914 iron cross always worn first in imperial ribbon bars!

Toe nail polish - Don't they call that soft enamel?

Perhaps one reason governments are handing out cheap. tacky medals is that, in many cases, the medals are for non-events. Who ever heard of an award just for being deployed? Or showing up regularly at drills? We have cheapened the criteria for awards, so the awards have become cheaper. Can't be entirely coincidental.

(Waiting for the storm of commentary)

Hugh

[TacHel]

And award just for being deployed? Have you spent many 6 month to a full year deployments away from loved ones in the armpit of the planet? Whether under fire or not makes no diff... These awards recognize sacrifice, not merely combat.

[Hugh]

And award just for being deployed? Have you spent many 6 month to a full year deployments away from loved ones in the armpit of the planet? Whether under fire or not makes no diff... These awards recognize sacrifice, not merely combat.

Yes, in fact, I have. In 10 years of active service, I did quite a few multi-month deployments aboard a small non-air conditioned ship and a year on the ground in Viet Nam. It's what I signed up for, I regard it as part of the package, not an extraordinary accomplishment. We've set our standards too low.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Perhaps one reason governments are handing out cheap. tacky medals is that, in many cases, the medals are for non-events. Who ever heard of an award just for being deployed? Or showing up regularly at drills? We have cheapened the criteria for awards, so the awards have become cheaper. Can't be entirely coincidental.

(Waiting for the storm of commentary)

Hugh

Hi,

I think most nations have a "Catch all" medal along the lines of a "National Defence" medal. Covers service, deployment, conduct etc. etc.

Best

Chris

[azyeoman]

Excellent point and true.

[Hugh]

Hi,

I think most nations have a "Catch all" medal along the lines of a "National Defence" medal. Covers service, deployment, conduct etc. etc.

Best

Chris

Exactly, and that's fine. Just not one for every trip outside the base limits.

Hugh

[Jacques]

France has a "national defense medal" with bronze, silver and gold class , plus gold class with star or palm for a citation for good conduct in operation, commemorative medal for overseas deployment on which you can add bar of the country( Extreme orient, Tchad, Liban, cambodge, république de cote d'ivoire, cente Afrique, etc..), French commemorative medal for other deployments than overseas (with bar ex-yougoslavie, Afghanistan, etc..). War cross, military valor cross depending the engagement, with stars and palm for the citations.

Each soldier knows what he done and what value to accord to his medals. Main soldiers of the French army turned somewhere in the balkans, in Africa or Afghanistan, so anybody knows what are the value of these medals, but a soldier without commemorative medals is just looked as the martian: what he has done ? Where he served ? I think that far over the value of the medal it is a testimony of an experience, mor or less stressing depending the unit and the current situation. And It is nice on the uniform when parading...and what did we collect if governments had the same opinion as you ?

Edited November 6, 2011 by Jacques

[Chris Boonzaier]

France has a "national defense medal" with bronze, silver and gold class , plus gold class with star or palm for a citation for good conduct in operation, commemorative medal for overseas deployment on which you can add bar of the country( Extreme orient, Tchad, Liban, cambodge, république de cote d'ivoire, cente Afrique, etc..), French commemorative medal for other deployments than overseas (with bar ex-yougoslavie, Afghanistan, etc..). War cross, military valor cross depending the engagement, with stars and palm for the citations.

Each soldier knows what he done and what value to accord to his medals. Main soldiers of the French army turned somewhere in the balkans, in Africa or Afghanistan, so anybody knows what are the value of these medals, but a soldier without commemorative medals is just looked as the martian: what he has done ? Where he served ? I think that far over the value of the medal it is a testimony of an experience, mor or less stressing depending the unit and the current situation. And It is nice on the uniform when parading...and what did we collect if governments had the same opinion as you ?

Hi Jacques,

I think the Overseas and Commemorative (ex Yougoslavie) etc fall in a different category, they would have parallels in the British or US system of Campaign Medal. I dont think that is what Hugh is on about.

I think what Hugh is talking about are medals for non operational deployment, then a bronze one for 30 days at sea, and a silver one for 50 days at sea, and a good cunduct for not being late for a year and a happy face medal for not pssing your commander off, then a "my wifes gonna kill me" medal for being posted to Luxembourgfor 6 months etc. etc. In France this will all be covered by a Defense National.... but some other countries may have a seperate medal for each of the items listed ;-).

Best

Chris

[Hugh]

Exactly right, Chris. I've been a collector for over 50 years, but I don't put much stock in the gedunk medals.

H

[TacHel]

I have NEVER seen a Bundeswehr soldier wearing is full medal bar in full dress uniform on parade. The only pics I ever saw to the contrary were of serving bundeswehr WW2 vets wearing their 57ers, and they weren't on parade, these were personal or studio portraits.

Does ANYBODY have ANY pics of modern (fairly recent) Bundeswehr parades in full dress uniform where medals are worn? I would love to see some!! Because until I do... I'll be resigned to believing this is only tolerated in this brigade.

Still waiting... :whistle:

[Jacques]

Hi,

This morning I have been awarded with the "Ehrenkreuz in silber". All the troops were in combat dress, Only the flag guard, the French commander an the german deputy commander were in parade combat dress uniform with full medals.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Absolutely fantastic Jacques !!!!!!!!!!!

Felicitations!

Lets see some pix.... that makes a fantastic bar indeed!!!

How often do you find German Awards on French bars, and vice versa! Usually it is only sport stuff.

[azyeoman]

Please show us your medal bar. :jumping:

[TacHel]

Mes sincères félicitations!

Edited November 11, 2011 by TacHel

[Kev in Deva]

Was chatting to a couple of German lads about medal wearing in the German army when one came up with this comment:-

" Uniform regulations state that original medals may only be worn on the day of award and to the grand gala uniform.

Apart from that it's up to the soldiers if they wear their awards or not. Many generals, for example, do not.

Somehow I never realised that the individual soldier in the German Armed Forces had such powers.

Kevin in Deva

[Jacques]

Thank you,

It's just to reward 5 years of hard combat to keep and pulling forward the bi-nationality and hard working with the german comrades of the bataillon. Indeed, not so many did received this decoration, overall in silver. Most of them were attached to the HQ of the D/F Brig.

OK for the medals bar, the Ehrenkreuz is larger than the other one and not yet at the right place.

[Jacques]

Concerning the wear of the full medals on the parade dress uniform whith weapons, it is may be a special regulation to the GF Brigade in order to be conform to the French regulations and to keep some germans ones too. the GF brigade ceremonies are full of such special arrangments mixed from both countries regulations in order to make something binational. For exemples, orders can be given either in French or in German, the Spiess is at the right place during the parades, we salute and sing both national anthem, Companies have a sing, etc, etc...It is a bit special but I do think that or german comrades, at least NCO's and Officers are happy of that.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Jacques

[Kev in Deva]

@ Jacques,

Congratulations, nice rack you have there.

Kevin in Deva.

[TacHel]

" Uniform regulations state that original medals may only be worn on the day of award and to the grand gala uniform."

Which is what I've always been told by Bundeswehr friends... ONLY miniatures may be worn on the mess kit (gala uniform), the full size medals are NOT to be worn (EVER).

Apart from that it's up to the soldiers if they wear their awards or not. Many generals, for example, do not.

Complete news to me, and I believe erroneous... Unless an actual written directive can be found?

As far as I see it, the German members of the Brigade are the ONLY members of the Bundeswehr allowed to wear full size medals, period, at any time, and only to fall in line with French regs due to the mixed composition of the unit.

Their Bundeswehr colleagues are unfortunately bound by an antiquated post WW2 regulation that simply won't go away. Sad to see modern day Germans serving their country honorably having to put up with this because of the past.

[Kev in Deva]

Thank you,

It's just to reward 5 years of hard combat to keep and pulling forward the bi-nationality and hard working with the german comrades of the bataillon. Indeed, not so many did received this decoration, overall in silver. Most of them were attached to the HQ of the D/F Brig.

OK for the medals bar, the Ehrenkreuz is larger than the other one and not yet at the right place.

Hi Jacques,

Can you clarify the bit in bold? Am I right in thinking that most did not get the award because they were H.Q. types??

And were only silver awards made at the ceremony on the 11. 11, 2011 ?

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[speedytop]

Hi,

what is more important for a military leader, to be an accepted personality or to wear his decorations?

I can understand and accept, that there were many people, that want to wear all possible decorations.

But please accept, that there were people, who are not interested in wearing decorations, especially not in the original size.

I never wore any of my very few decorations, not on a ribbon bar and especially not in the original size.

Only, as written above, on the day of the award. In the evening they were part of my collection!

Some of the statements here about the German regulations are not correct.

No German soldier in the Bundeswehr must wear a decoration. It is his personal decision, to wear it or not (it had been just the contrary in the East German NVA).

"Orden und Ehrenzeichen können getragen werden." > Orders and decorations can/may be worn.

A German soldier could wear his decorations on a ribbon bar, on the service dress.

He could wear his decorations on a medal bar, but only for specified events, substantial limited.

If it is allowed, e.g. during wedding festivities, he could wear his medal bar on the "Dienstanzug" or on the "Gesellschaftsuniform" (service dress or mess kit/gala uniform).

He could also wear his decorations on a mini bar.

For international formations and bi- or multinational events we can find special regulations.

These are not antiquated regulations. In my opinion these are modern regulations, adapted to the modern time

Uwe

[Obergefreiter]

Hi,

This morning I have been awarded with the "Ehrenkreuz in silber". All the troops were in combat dress, Only the flag guard, the French commander an the german deputy commander were in parade combat dress uniform with full medals.

Congratulations. :cheers:

[azyeoman]

Congratulations; a fine medal bar. Also, happy Veterans Day to you and thank you for your service!

[Jacques]

Hi Jacques,

Can you clarify the bit in bold? Am I right in thinking that most did not get the award because they were H.Q. types??

And were only silver awards made at the ceremony on the 11. 11, 2011 ?

Kevin in Deva.

Hi,

During the 11/11 ceremony an ''Ehrenmedaille" was also awarded to a german Nco.

The attribution of the silver class is not reserved to the HQ, but it is there that you find the most part of the high ranking officers.

I can't say if it is a written regulation or simply a common practize concerning the awarding of the german "Ehrenkreuz" for duty to foreigners(not in combat operation):

- private = Ehrenmedaille

- Nco = Ehrenmedaille or Ehrenkreuz bronze

- Officers = Ehrenkreuz bronze

- high ranking officer : Ehrenkreuz silver

- general = Ehrenkreuz gold

As I already said, it is not common to be awarded these medals, during 5 years I only saw around 10 French guys from my Batallon awarded by the german counterpart.

French side do the same for the german who made a special duty attributing the medal of "defense nationale" in bronze , silver or gold.

the date of 11 november is a commemoration day in France and for the frech troops, but not in Germany . To the D/F Logistic Bt, the day is a working day but it begins with a ceremony or at least a remembrance allocution , and then the day is dedicated to sports challenges between the Coys'.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Jacques

[Red Eagle]

New in my collection:

The big case!

http://ordensmuseum.de/orden-ehrenzeichen-bundesprasidenten-gestiftet-genehmigt-sind/das-ehrenzeichen-der-bundeswehr/

Edited March 6, 2013 by Red Eagle