JPL Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Last ribbon bottom bar is South Korean Order of Military Merit 4th Class Wharang 3rd grade. Captain Albert s_korean_orde_merit_fr.jpg s_korean_orde_merit_bk.jpg Hi, I believe that the orange ribbon with white stripes is in fact the Order of Ouissam Alaouit from Morocco. This is based on the fact that the white stripes are wider than that of the Korean ribbon. There is also the rosette on the ribbon. This seems to fit in, since he also has the African Campaign ribbon. Jean-Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Actually, I think Paul nailed the first ribbon. The Naval Reserve Medal. Sorry, George, but it definitely isn't a green center; it is sort of a cooperish brown. From what I've read on the Naval Reserve Medal, the center is to match the dark red Navy Good Conduct Medal ribbon. Given dye differences and fading, the ribbon certainly could have been a more "red" color at one time. Absolutely never green. Of course, the order of precedence is wrong as the Naval Reserve Medal would have ranked after the WW2 campaign medals. But we all know that order of precedence is often messed up due to lack of knowledge or the recipient decided to put that medal first. Thanks, Paul, I think this is the one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Hi, I believe that the orange ribbon with white stripes is in fact the Order of Ouissam Alaouit from Morocco. This is based on the fact that the white stripes are wider than that of the Korean ribbon. There is also the rosette on the ribbon. This seems to fit in, since he also has the African Campaign ribbon. Jean-Paul Jean-Paul, I agree with you that it isn't the Korean award; as you say, the stripes don't match and there is the rosette which the Korean award doesn't have (plus as I said above - where are the other Korea War ribbons?). The Moroccan Order of Ouissam Alaouit certainly matches the color/design for the Grade of Officer. Unfortunately, it matches for the ribbon since 1956. The ribbon before 1956 doesn't have white stripes. On the other hand, the Order of Ouissam Alaouit was awarded to US military personnel by Morocco for Operation Torch - could this particular award have been made several years later - after 1956? Certainly plausible. Or the bar was made after 1956 and the newer ribbon was the only one on hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) So, here's what I think is the most plausible at this point. The bars go together (I didn't show the backs, but the stitching matches very, very closely). And possibly even missing a top row. A naval officer involved in Operation Torch. Naval Reserve Medal (out of order) American Defense Service Medal American Campaign Medal EAME Campaign Medal (three missing stars) WWII Victory Medal Order of Ouissam Alaouit, Degree of Officer (Morocco) Edited May 13, 2013 by IrishGunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Perhaps the officer was confused, as he rationalized the placement to coincide with the enlisted good conduct medal? I really love this set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 (edited) Perhaps the officer was confused, as he rationalized the placement to coincide with the enlisted good conduct medal? I really love this set. Everything is speculation, but I suspect he put the Naval Reserve Medal first because it required 10 years service to earn. As a long time Navy reservist that perhaps meant something to him. Also, since it was instituted in 1938, maybe that confused the maker as to order of precedence, putting it before the WW2 medals. I don't collect "Navy", but the possible Operation Torch connection makes this is a nice pick-up. Edited May 13, 2013 by IrishGunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Everything is speculation, but I suspect he put the Naval Reserve Medal first because it required 10 years service to earn. As a long time Navy reservist that perhaps meant something to him. Also, since it was instituted in 1938, maybe that confused the maker as to order of precedence, putting it before the WW2 medals. I don't collect "Navy", but the possible Operation Torch connection makes this is a nice pick-up. My order of precedence speculation might be pretty spot on... See this link to the usmilitariaforum for two groups including the Naval Reserve Medal AHEAD of the WW2 medals. I'd give this a 90+ percent certainty that this ribbon is the Naval Reserve Medal. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/114394-faithful-service-the-naval-reserve-medal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army historian Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Well - I'm sorry (it looked and still looks green - and the blue edges do not match, too light). It is possible if all the ribbons were really faded (doesn't look like it). But the possibility of the Moroccan Order is very good - and probably correct. Also it is not uncommon to see the Navy Reserve medal ahead of other medals (again individual award), especially in Navy Officer's groups where their are no higher awards. PS need to be more careful with the colors in your pictures. Captain Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Well - I'm sorry (it looked and still looks green - and the blue edges do not match, too light). It is possible if all the ribbons were really faded (doesn't look like it). But the possibility of the Moroccan Order is very good - and probably correct. Also it is not uncommon to see the Navy Reserve medal ahead of other medals (again individual award), especially in Navy Officer's groups where their are no higher awards. PS need to be more careful with the colors in your pictures. Captain Albert Thanks for confirmation of the order of precedence regarding the Naval Reserve Medal. Very helpful. PS: I just take the pictures, I don't paint the colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikscollectables Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 This custom group is one of my favorites. Would it be possible to determine a possible unit based on the amount of service stars on the two campaign medals? I think 3 for Korea is rare? Regards, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Not to my knowledge, but that guy - I'd wager, was an officer (Captain) by 1952. Two Purple Hearts and only one Good conduct medal...and no national defense medal yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) Officers are not awarded GCM, strictly enlisted. Can not determine what unit by awards, only by unit patch, right or left side, right for prior combat. Edited October 16, 2013 by E Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Officers are not awarded GCM, strictly enlisted. I think he is suggesting that he started WW2 as enlisted and somewhere along the line received a commission since with the service reflected in this bar, he should have more than one GCM. Officers are authorized to wear the GCM they earned as prior enlisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 I think he is suggesting that he started WW2 as enlisted and somewhere along the line received a commission since with the service reflected in this bar, he should have more than one GCM. Officers are authorized to wear the GCM they earned as prior enlisted. True, prior enlisted but I see no where it can tell if enlisted or occifer. Remember, one has to be in three years to receive one if you've been a good boy. I learned soon into what was to come, a Good Conduct Medal wasn't awarded because you were a good boy, it was awarded because you never got caught. It donates two purple hearts and a CIB, there is no valour awards, the rest are service/achievement and service/campaign ribbons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) True, prior enlisted but I see no where it can tell if enlisted or occifer. Remember, one has to be in three years to receive one if you've been a good boy. I learned soon into what was to come, a Good Conduct Medal wasn't awarded because you were a good boy, it was awarded because you never got caught. It donates two purple hearts and a CIB, there is no valour awards, the rest are service/achievement and service/campaign ribbons The end of WW2 1945 to the beginning of Korea 1950 accounts for about 5 years + some Occupation duty with AOM + enough WW2 campaign stars to account for at least another 1+ years; meaning to be an enlisted bar, he should have at least TWO GCM. I see one...equally 3 years. Thus, I believe it is highly unlikely that this is the bar of an enlisted soldier, but rather a company grade officer with prior enlisted time. It's not a question of "seeing" but analyzing and deducing. Of course, it is indeed speculation, but highly likely speculation. I suppose we could assume it's an enlisted bar if we also speculate that he was a "bad" boy at some point and didn't get a second GCM. You are correct, we don't know with provenance or paperwork, but 90% of this hobby is speculation IMHO. I did wonder about the lack of a V device for the BSM. But I'm thinking in WW2 and Korea the V device wasn't as "generously" awarded as it was later, especially if a lot of that combat time was enlisted. Edited October 16, 2013 by IrishGunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The National Defense Ribbon was designated by executive order in Apr 1953, the war ended (truce) in July 53. His service could have ended before then. I say he served in WWII and either got out and came back in as prior service for Korea or stayed in till Korea. If we knew if his second Purple Heart was awarded in Korea, it could have been a medical discharge. There are so many possibilities but I still say he was a Noncom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The National Defense Ribbon was designated by executive order in Apr 1953, the war ended (truce) in July 53. His service could have ended before then. I say he served in WWII and either got out and came back in as prior service for Korea or stayed in till Korea. If we knew if his second Purple Heart was awarded in Korea, it could have been a medical discharge. There are so many possibilities but I still say he was a Noncom. I think the AOM discounts any break in service between WW2 and Korea.. And you are right again - many possibilities - such as no NDSM because this is a "theater" made bar in Korea before he was awarded the NDSM. I have a bunch of racks in my drawer that come from various times in my career that don't show my whole rap sheet. It's only a point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Draw down after every war was the hardest to make rank and after WWII, Korea and Nam there was a lot of occifer RIFs. Can't see him going into the Occifer ranks after WWII unless he was an Occifer in WWII and then RIFed down to enlisted for Korea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Draw down after every war was the hardest to make rank and after WWII, Korea and Nam there was a lot of occifer RIFs. Can't see him going into the Occifer ranks after WWII unless he was an Occifer in WWII and then RIFed down to enlisted for Korea. Interesting twist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Interesting twist... That would explain his puny onetime GCM although I didn't make it to Korea, almost did, I'm sure he R&R'd in Japan and those Geisha gals got me into all kinds of positions trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGunner Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 That would explain his puny onetime GCM although I didn't make it to Korea, almost did, I'm sure he R&R'd in Japan and those Geisha gals got me into all kinds of positions trouble. Father Rick will hear your confessions in the Lounge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) Father Rick will hear your confessions in the Lounge I was once asked by two 1st LTs, if they wrote up the recommendations, would I consider going to OCS and I said....and miss all the fun???? Edited October 16, 2013 by E Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikscollectables Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thanks for all the input! The ww2 BSM most often did not have the V device as mentioned above, right? Regards, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 I closed down for the night and hit the bed but this rack wouldn't go away. I knew no enlisted or Noncom who had an embroidered rack, maybe an odd E-8 now and then but only officers could afford them and replace them everytime they received a new award or an additional award or maybe a Noncom retiree might have that final rack made for going home. BUT........look at the background cloth they were embroidered on, it doesn't look like officer gabardine but more for an enlisted wool Korean War Ike jacket. Khakis were not in yet and basically the Class A uniforms of the Korean War were the same as WWII both for EM and Officer. The field/CBT uniforms changed bigtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thanks for all the input! The ww2 BSM most often did not have the V device as mentioned above, right? Regards, Erik That's correct Erik. A BS could be awarded for Valor, Service or Achievement during and in a war. If awarded for Valor, a 'V' device was added to the ribbon, for service/achievement, no device or in the case, an oakleaf for each additional award up to the fourth award, ribbon always counts as 1st award. With the award of five, it's a silver device. Oakleaf for individual awards, stars for campaigns. On your rack, the CIB is awarded to infantrymen and to receive the CIB, you must have experience ground combat. Officers can be awarded the CIB from colonel on down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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