Some items from my collection

[M Hunter]

Genbtlemen,

Here are a few items from my small collection. I have never had them discussed anywhere before, i think they are all ok, but would like you to give them the once over! First up my badges!

Kind regards

Matt Hunter

[M Hunter]

A few ribbon bars.

[M Hunter]

And my only medal bar!

Matt

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Matt,

thanks for posting this very interesting medal bar - very unusual combination with prussian CO4 peacetime award and then a rare Lübeck combattant award....and then long Wehrmacht service.... very interesting you don`t have a name for this one , or...???

Heiko

Edited August 13, 2009 by HeikoGrusdat

[Claudius]

Very nice bar!

A son of Lübeck, or Lübeck unit. Had years of service before WWI, earned a KO4 and Imperial LS for prewar service, then traded them out for TR LS and a Hindy by 1934. Was likely an old man by then. Maybe an NCO? Again a great bar. Too bad it's likely not identifiable.

[Ulsterman]

Never say never; I heard the Lubeck roll is done.

COs were not given to NCOs.

I'd bet he was born @ 1880-1890, served in the navy and the bar dates to @ 1937-40....

Very, very nice bar!

[M Hunter]

Hi Gents! No name came with this bar.If Crown Orders were not given to NCO's, what kind of chap would have gotten this award?

Amazing how you can put a date on the bar! Is it possible to put names/rank to these medal bars?

Thanks for the info!

Matt

[Claudius]

Hi Gents! No name came with this bar.If Crown Orders were not given to NCO's, what kind of chap would have gotten this award?

Amazing how you can put a date on the bar! Is it possible to put names/rank to these medal bars?

Thanks for the info!

Matt

Ulsterman is right...if James Bond taught us anything it's "Never Say Never" (and "Never Say Never Again")

With the Lubeck rolls done, he would be there.

If not a NCO, then he was some junior officer during the time frame mentioned.

(When I said NCO, I was thinking of my F-P NCO with a KO4, however he didn't get the KO4 until much later when he left the military and became a prison guard and climbed the ranks there. He was awarded the KO4 for his service as a Prison Officer.)

[M Hunter]

Ulsterman is right...if James Bond taught us anything it's "Never Say Never" (and "Never Say Never Again")

With the Lubeck rolls done, he would be there.

If not a NCO, then he was some junior officer during the time frame mentioned.

(When I said NCO, I was thinking of my F-P NCO with a KO4, however he didn't get the KO4 until much later when he left the military and became a prison guard and climbed the ranks there. He was awarded the KO4 for his service as a Prison Officer.)

Hi Claudius,

Do you have these Lubeck rolls? Or is there somewhere i can access a copy? Be interesting to see what kinda chap wore this bar!

Matt

[Guest Rick Research]

Medal bar...

Because this is your first and only medal bar, let's go through the process.

My first reaction was: recalled former Imperial navy engineer, (E) in WW2. That's based on the statistical likehhood of this combination times decades buried in Rank Lists when I could have been out having FUN. But noooooo. NOT navy at all. (They usually have navy blue backings, but often enough not so that when a green (or is it Feldgrau?) backing like this comes along, have to be safe and check EVERYWHERE.

This requires a variety of sources, all of which need to be checked and counter-checked. Rank Lists. Seniority Lists. Award rolls. Biographical sources.

The glad news is

There Was Only One Wearer.

It IS an odd combination-- the Crown Order 4 was given to Lieutenants, and more so in the navy than army. He joined after March 1897-- no Centenary Medal.

He was not in the navy. Checked there, first step.

Next step: 1924 Reichsheer Rank List. Because his Wehrmacht long service 25 and 12, with no 1897 medal indicate that either

a) he was a young guy (awards LISTED there) or

b) he was an old retread called back up (invisible and into the Awards Rolls Mines)

Sure enough, there he is on page 153 of the vital 1924.

(Perfect facsimile reprint of 1924 Rank List may be obtained from Paul C)

Name brings us to career.

And Oh What A Career.

You know, if you have just ONE medal bar... it should probably be THIS one.

Say hello to

Generalleutnant and winner of the German Cross in Gold, Army High Command radio broadcaster-in-chief Kurt Dittmar!

Somebody with the Biblio army generals bios can get you his PORTRAIT and day by day career. I don't have that. From my OTHER sources--

Born Magdeburg 5 January 1891. Died 20 April 1959. Entered the army as an Abiturant 6 March 1909.

Fähnrich 1910

Leutnant 22.08.08 vorpatentiert (as an Abitur holder) 22.08.08 E in Pioneer Battalion 4

Oberleutnant 25.02.15

Hauptmann 18.12.17 C (Imperial seniority)/ #2 (Reichsheer seniority)

Major

Oberstleutnant 01.06.34

Oberst 01.04.36 #36

Generalmajor 1 April 1940

Generalleutnant 1 April 1942

WW1 served on the staff of Coastal Defense Fortifications of the Ems Estuary.

Lübeck Hanseatic Cross (Roll in editing for publication) as Hauptmann Pio Bn 4 on 10 February 1918.

His SURPRISING INDEED Crown Order 4 was received as a student at the Military Technical Academy 1913/14. He must have got all As!!!!

Purely by numerical coincidence, served in Reichsheer Pioneer Battalion 4-- which had nothing to do with the same numbered unit in the royal army. Instructor at the Infantry School in 1928.

Commander of Pioneer School I (Berlin-Karlshorst) 01.02.37

Commander of Pioneer School II (Pioneers Exercise Field Roßlau) 01.09.39

On staff of General der Pioneer at the Army High Command 15.10.39

Commander of Pioneers of 1st Army 10.03.40

Commander of 169th Infantry Division 01.02.-28.9.41 (I suspect he was wounded then from the gap)

OKH chief radio commentator 1 April 1942 to war's end

(Patriotic music out of the loudspeakers: "The High Command reports!--")

Received bars to both his Iron Crosses and

German Cross in Gold 19.12.41 as Generalmajor commanding 169th Infantry Division.

He was never wounded in World War One so all you need to complete this for display as his October 1936 medal bar, obviously never updated (most weren't) during WW2 is... an EK1 1914.

A nice bar.

Oh yes.

A VERY nice bar indeed. It is not often that a PAIR of awards is enough, but it isn't, really. In this case the ABSENCE of OTHER awards excluded a number of other suspects, while the army/navy Wehrmacht 25 duo also winnowed out people who were not eligible. This is a "trio" combination PLUS the minuses. "Zero" here is NOT a nullity, but a very definite additional piece of the combination by NOT being on there.

We're not really sorcerers--or mad. We just have too many reference books. Previously known as the Research Gnome Colecttive (as in The Borg), now The Research Cyborg Collective-- because we have too much data to store in JUST our Biological Brains any more. :ninja:

[Claudius]

Spectacular sleuthing.

photo and extra....

http://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Generalleutnant%20Kurt%20Dittmar.htm

[HeikoGrusdat]

Great job as always !!!

Great bar with a great history - as often it is the old rule : "sometimes less is more" - not much on the bar and that is the point , and a big name behind it makes it very interesting...

Matt , you have a very good bar there - take good care of it .... and of course ..... take good care of yourself now ..... because now you are on the direct way to the ....

...... slippery slope :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

Research Cyborgs are kind of like Marley's ghost--trailing the data that others made in life, link by link by link.Or maybe we're the Inspector Javerts of collecting-- implacably trailing clues for decades.

Hmmm.

SECOND most vital to senior Wehrmacht officer medal bar research is the series of national army Lists from 1914. Here young Leutnant Dittmar is shown in the Prussia & Württemberg Rank List of May 1914. He did not have the "KO4" (tiny cross with 4 next to it indicating that Order and class--as if Martin Luther-era typeface isn't bad enough, we also need to read what amount to Egyptian hieroglyphics) in the previous year's edition, which shows he got it in the 12 months between-- while attending the Mil Tech Acad!

This Rank List is also available on CD from Paul C. Saves not only vast amounts of money, but wear and tear on 95 year old books meant to "last" for only 1 year!

There was never an Imperial army Rank List issued after 1914.

[Guest Rick Research]

We now come to the Great Data Gap of 1914-16. This chasm is filled solely by the Militär Wochenblätter-- which continued to publish promotions, decorations (drastically reduced as the war ground on) and so on. Luckily for us all, Research Cyborg Glenn has been indexing the entire Prussian officer corps for the war ( ) so that I could find the correct edition which showed Dittmar's promotion to Oberleutnant...

... his and THOUSANDS of other officers all promoted in their respective ranks on the same day. I won't show his place in the endless procession (Column 973 of this issue) because it only shows his NAME.

For SENIORITY-- the mysterious suffixes after rank dates... we must go...

[Guest Rick Research]

... to the Prussian Army Seniority Lists issued on 1 January 1917, 1918, and (!) 1919.

And here is Oberleutnant 25.02.15 Q18q Dittmar on page 200 of the 01.01.17--

Thousands of pieces of "paper trail." Frighteningly, having them all on hand and knowing where to LOOK speeds things up to ALMOST computer speed.

Takes longer to scan and type than to find, on Mental AutoPilot. :catjava:

[Guest Rick Research]

Sliding past the Reichsheer List of 1924 which actually SHOWS his awards we come to the Forbidden Secrets Of The Third Reich.

Sounds like a History Channel television series, but Research Cyborgs LIVE this Indiana Jones world every day.

The vivid red of SECRET--! The Army List of 12 October 1937-- DARE youze go further?

After all, the penalties for revealing the Secrets Of The Reich are quite... severe!

Oh, let's chance it!

Oberst Dittmar's command and loyal subordinates--

(Being somewhat ancient, it is from such original sources-- secured by daring subterranean research cyborg explorers sifting through the overlooked spoils of the Soviet Occupation that I get my First Run data. This and other Equally Secret sources will, I hope, soon be made available to the Non-Gnome World. There are simply issues of loathsome lack of integrity and utter absence of personal honour and integrity which hold us back-- humans being what they are.)

[Guest Rick Research]

I will conclude my part of the tour of the WONDERFUL World Of Research with the 1 May 1943 SECRET Seniority List.

You will find Herr Dittmar as Generalleutnant 01.04.42 #6: as a security measure, assignments are given as of the last pre-war assignment of 1939.

I actually do not have anything NEWER on ARMY Generals than...

1958.

Still, the past isn't going anywhere! :cheers:

[M Hunter]

Rick Research,

Firstly....WOW.... I had no idea this could be done! What a "tour"!! So many resourses to draw from, you really are dedicated to the cause of research! My thanks to you sir...if i was wearing a hat i would take it of to you!! Truely amazing!!

When i first got this bar i knew it was special, not many bars with a Crown Order, plus i like enamelled orders like the Lubeck Cross....but i had no idea it was this special, the medal bar of a Generalleutnant..... I am bowled over by how fast you got this information, i only posted this yesterday!

Thank you to Claudius who posted a link to a photo of Dittmar...i see he was in British captivity!

And Heiko...as for the slippery slope...i think i am falling head over heals down the hill of medal bar collecting! I have no real focus regarding a "collection", so this has given me something to consider! Do you chaps think it a wise road to go down?

My best to to you all!

Matt

[Deruelle]

Hi Matt,

Here is another link about Generalleutnant Dittmar.

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/HEER/Generalleutnant/DITTMAR_KURT.html

Christophe

[scottplen]

are you guys kidding me ???!!!! YOU MUST HAVE SOME SORT OF MAGIC POWERS TO FIND THIS GUY !!! Rick are you a WIZARD???? or did you just sell your soul to the research Devil????!!!! WOW GREAT BAR AND GREAT WORK !!!!!

[Ulsterman]

"Soon, soon he will be mine!"

Ha ha!!

[Guest Rick Research]

"Do you chaps think it a wise road to go down?"

Ewwwwww-- not at ALL! After 30 years you end up like me!

Results are always going to be random. The most important things for such results are for the wearer to have been a career officer in the Reichsheer or Reichsmarine-- because we have the MOST COMPLETE data on them. After that it comes down to which awards are present and whether we have obtained the rolls and transcribed them. That is crucial for WW1 officers who disappear afterwards. (Five rolls published last year and more than that due out next year-- requiring work on two continents by half a dozen slaves, er researchers) Next, it comes down to biographical sources: generals are easiest, then naval officers, then Bavarian and Saxon and Württemberg officers since their armies' Lists have decreasing personal information which varies over time.

The Prussians (wretched Prussians) never even listed first names unless two officers of the same rank were serving in the same regiment together. The Bavarians and Saxons and regular officers in Württemberg listed first names-- the Bavarians with birth years and the pre-war Württembergers with complete birth dates AND birth place (which helps for Prussians in their units).

Many awards were never even SHOWN in Rank Lists, and like the rest of The Invisible World, have to be deduced from other evidence. All Prussian/naval/colonial personnel serving on 22 March 1897 got the Wilhelm I Centenary Medal-- but it was never shownin Prussian Rank Lists. SELECTED officers from the other three national armies got it (if their regimental "Chief" was the Kaiser, or if they were serving in a mixed division in Alsace-Lorraine, or IF the officer was invited to some official celebration or...) but while the Bavarians list it... the other two Kingdoms' Lists do NOT.

What all of this needs, in short is

decades of doing it over and over and over

the actual period paper sources (and sufficient space to stack 'em in!)

vast computer space to keep track of "overflow" from the aging human brains involved

and an almost total lack of any other life.

It's like nuns being "brides of Christ"--- we're "monks of research." :cheeky:

[saschaw]

Great bar, and great research parade. When I saw the bar I was sure it's identifiable and most likely a General's - but this plenty of information found within a day is just.... wow.

[VtwinVince]

Matt, that is a great start to bar collecting (understatement of the century). I have collected Imperial bars for some time, and can vouch for the addictive nature of the hobby.

[Claudius]

Great bar, and great research parade. When I saw the bar I was sure it's identifiable and most likely a General's - but this plenty of information found within a day is just.... wow.

Ouch. Oh, sure saschaw, a little salt in my wound. But I'm glad for the identity sake of the bar that I was wrong.