The medal bar of GFM Walter Model

[Paul C]

Now I am going to have people following me around at shows to see what I look at. I guess I will have to start wearing a long trenchcoat, dark glasses and a large hat. Oh wait...that is way I ususally wear. :whistle:

[Imperial]

Oh yeah,

That getup will make you really inconspicuous. Now your trying to dress like Model too.

SP

[Paul C]

Yesterday I was at the US Archive in College Park, Maryland USA. I was able to obtain a copy of Model's service record. For thoses of you who do not know the US Army took whatever German Army and SS servicemen records that they could find in May 1945. In 1955 these records were returned to Germany but only after they were put on Microfilm. Looking though Model's file I saw that at each review by a superior officer Model's awards were listed ont he sheet. As per the sheet below Model did not receive any Czech or Austrian campaign medal. His only campaign medal was the Russian medal. There is a color picture of Model on the previous page of this thread that shows Model with the Russian Campaign ribbon through the button hole. So after Model put his long service awards on the medal bar his only additional medal that could be on the bar would have been the Russian Campaign medal. Since this was awarded in 1942 I doubt he had the time or desire to update his bar. I have never seen a picure of Model wearing his ribbon bar or medal bar after 1938. He seems to not have cared to wear it.

[W McSwiggan]

Now I am going to have people following me around at shows to see what I look at. I guess I will have to start wearing a long trenchcoat, dark glasses and a large hat. Oh wait...that is way I usually wear.

A burkha perhaps??? :whistle:

[Steve K.]

I guess I will have to start wearing a long trenchcoat, dark glasses and a large hat. Oh wait...that is way I ususally wear.

I just look for the shiny, bald head.

It's like a beacon in the night sky of the collecting field!

Great job researching this bar...a great story of collaborations and another bar saved from obscurity!

Steve

[Herman]

Hello,

First i would like to congratulate Paul with his great find.

Triggered by some posts i did a google search for pictures of the General with his medal bar and/or ribbon bar and found exactly one blurry picture of him wearing his ribbon bar. As he is wearing his spange to his EK1 and no Knightcross the date of the picture is between oktober 1939 and july 1941. He is not wearing his EK2 with spange in the first picture.

The second picture is between the same dates, but this time he is wearing the EK2 with spange. Both pictures are from the axishistory pages.

After examining dozens of photos of him i must say that he really fancied his leather overcoat.

Paul, you really did a great finding.

regards

Herman

[Paul C]

Herman, Thanks for the pics. Yes Model rarely wore his ribbon bar and seemed to love his leather coat.

[PKeating]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if GFM und Brillantentrager Model's medal bar was put up for sale at Hermann Historica or some such place. Would all those collectors who passed on it previously cause a stampede? Has anyone thought of getting in touch with Model fils? A letter from him confirming that this medal bar must have belonged to his father would be the cherry on the cake.

PK

[Guest Rick Research]

Ironclad verified, cross-checked period references and the skill and tenacity to use them are all that is required for forensic attribution. The Research Collective™©® has ALL the relevant Award Rolls and Rank Lists in that specific case. St. John 20:25 has always been our Rule.

Oddly enough, there ARE collectors whose first, last, and always thought is NOT how many National Currency Units can some... thing be exchanged for.

Were that not the case, days/weeks/months--and sometimes years (Luke I have not abandoned your Old Style ribbon bar! ) of very specialized professional research indeed could not be paid for by... anyone. Not that anybody has ever offered. WE couldn't afford US.

I spent--in a hopeless attempt to NOT continue typing Meiningen SMMS-- an entire day to arrive at the "hopeless" figures on the two ribbon bars above--

for my own satisfaction (there was nothing worth watching on TV) and in the eventual expectation that

every time we eliminate as many "suspects" as possible, the NEXT time some other source is turned up by one of our Collective, the Happy Day inevitably draws nearer when

anything MIGHT BE possible.

God knows why we can't recruit a Next Generation to assume our monastic scholarship....

[Les]

A now-dead forger of fine art, once said, if it was made once, it can be made again.

In the high stakes world of art forgery, making something look right relies on getting all the details right, which means using the style of brush a painter used that go past the details of whether he or his apprentices were left or right handed, and every other complex detail of painting such as the proportion of pigments, and so on.

In the museum world, art and antiquities that look and feel right, are sometimes betrayed by methods that are true forensics, for example, the deterioration rates of materials that can be tested in labs against known standards. A 500 year old painting can be tested to determine if it was made hundreds of years ago, or recently.

A medal bar can be constructed using period materials, put together in the correct order, and made as a 'tribute bar' such as a copy of Richtofen's full bar, Rommel's medal bar, etc, by someone who wants a display piece (for whatever purpose) because the original is not available, not for sale, etc, and they want it as a copy piece for their collection. There are/were OMSA members who made and sold ribbon and medal bars to order. If you told them you wanted a particular medal bar made up, they would do it for you based on the medals and details you supplied or if they had to do it on their own. Some of their "work" is still around, not to mention the efforts of others.

Someone wanting a "tribute bar" may not intend fraud or deception at all. They might have a display piece for their collection, but if it ever changed hands or was sold by the collector's estate, a "tribute" piece could subsequently take on a life of it's own.

A piece might look exactly like an original period made piece is every detail, however, being certain of when it was made may not be so absolutely certain.

I'm not saying the "GFM Model bar" is something or not. Although the details of construction, and arrangement might look right, that alone is not always enough. If someone offered you a medal bar purported to have belonged to Erwin Rommel, and it looked right, wouldn't you want to establish background details regarding where it came from, how they came to own it, previous owners, etc, not a collector's "tribute bar" etc?

[PKeating]

Dangling thread...

[Guest Rick Research]

I bet the rest of you fellows are jealous that YOU don't have CREEPY CREEPY tag team stalkers conspicuous for their total non-involvement in Imperial German collecting dogging YOUR threads like this, eh?

Good luck and happy collecting! :cheers:

[Paul C]

A now-dead forger of fine art, once said, if it was made once, it can be made again.

In the high stakes world of art forgery, making something look right relies on getting all the details right, which means using the style of brush a painter used that go past the details of whether he or his apprentices were left or right handed, and every other complex detail of painting such as the proportion of pigments, and so on.

In the museum world, art and antiquities that look and feel right, are sometimes betrayed by methods that are true forensics, for example, the deterioration rates of materials that can be tested in labs against known standards. A 500 year old painting can be tested to determine if it was made hundreds of years ago, or recently.

A medal bar can be constructed using period materials, put together in the correct order, and made as a 'tribute bar' such as a copy of Richtofen's full bar, Rommel's medal bar, etc, by someone who wants a display piece (for whatever purpose) because the original is not available, not for sale, etc, and they want it as a copy piece for their collection. There are/were OMSA members who made and sold ribbon and medal bars to order. If you told them you wanted a particular medal bar made up, they would do it for you based on the medals and details you supplied or if they had to do it on their own. Some of their "work" is still around, not to mention the efforts of others.

Someone wanting a "tribute bar" may not intend fraud or deception at all. They might have a display piece for their collection, but if it ever changed hands or was sold by the collector's estate, a "tribute" piece could subsequently take on a life of it's own.

A piece might look exactly like an original period made piece is every detail, however, being certain of when it was made may not be so absolutely certain.

I'm not saying the "GFM Model bar" is something or not. Although the details of construction, and arrangement might look right, that alone is not always enough. If someone offered you a medal bar purported to have belonged to Erwin Rommel, and it looked right, wouldn't you want to establish background details regarding where it came from, how they came to own it, previous owners, etc, not a collector's "tribute bar" etc?

Les, I once asked you if you ever traced out, to the original owner, a medal bar or ribbon bar and you refused to responce. You really have no idea of what you are talking about. You come to this forum and offer opinions and I have never seen anything from your collection that you post. Do you actually collect anything? Again I say you have no idea what you are talking about.

[PKeating]

Actually, I collect 'The Iron Cross' from 1813 to 1957, albeit slowly. I used to collect 1870-71 and colonial medals and their bars before I decided that I preferred the French Colonial Medal. As for Imperial medal bars, I've had a few in the past thirty-odd years, some of which were attributable. It would be nice if the Model medal bar turned out to have belonged to Model but I think the things that put off other collectors might prevent me from adding it to my collection were I interested in medal bars: the condition of the ribbons compared to the medals, the asymmetrical backing, the stray thread and so on. And the anomalies, like the absence of the 1939 Spange and the Winter War Medal. But if you do succeed in getting General Model - the son - to respond to your enquiries, he might be able to confirm that he disposed of some of his father's effects, like this late-1930s medal bar, rather than having them displayed in museums, like his father's baton and so on. There again, he might tell you that these medals were stolen from his father's estate at some point and ask you to return them, which would be a bore.

PK

[Paul C]

God almighty this is tiring! The ranklists and award rolls confirm that the bar could only have belonged to GFM Model. There have been many other medal bars and ribbon bars that have been traced by members on this forum and rarely is the ID questioned. If the methods and conclusions are not questioned for the other IDed bars then why are they questioned for this conclusion of GFM Model. The bar is 100% unmessed with and original. It is a pre-1939 assembly. There is nothing odd or unusual about it. It conforms to all standards of 1930's medalbars.

[PKeating]

Well, Model is a special case. Apart from anything else, he was a Brillantentrager. So your medal bar, if it turns out to have belonged to Model at some point, would be a very significant discovery.

PK

[Paul C]

Well, Model is a special case. Apart from anything else, he was a Brillantentrager. So your medal bar, if it turns out to have belonged to Model at some point, would be a very significant discovery.

PK

It is not a question of if it turns out to be Model's bar, it is his bar. The evidence is there in the award rolls and ranklists. To deny it is like saying the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese.

[PKeating]

Model was awarded the 1939 Bars to his 1914 Iron Crosses on 22.9.1939. So this rare first pattern from my collection could be Model's Spange. It's original and looks like the one he received.

PK

Edited February 4, 2010 by PKeating

[Deruelle]

Hi Prosper,

About the 1939 Spange, the officer can choose to wear it on buttonhole or with the ribbon bar. And if he wore the Spange on buttonhole, this one doesn't appear on the medal bar. for me it's logical

Christophe

[Paul C]

This reminds me of a story my grandfather once told me. He needed gas and went into a gas station to buy some. While he was pumping the gas into his car there was another customer filling the gas tank of his car while smoking a big cigar. My grandfather advised him that he should not smoke while he was pumping gas. The man just looked at him and said I know what I am doing. Well my grandfather got back into his car rather quickly after paying for the gas and said to my grandmother "it is rather hard for an idiot to realize he is an idiot".

True Story!

[saschaw]

Nice discussion. Paul, can you proove me the moon is not made of cheese? I bet you cannot! However, I'm pretty sure Jupiter is!

PKeating, might I ask why you're posting fake Iron Crosses in this thread? I cannot see any connection, nor did you write anything about them... ?

[PKeating]

I don't really think there is any scope for an adult discussion with people who resort to playground abuse, who think the Iron Crosses posted here (to make a point, which was clearly too subtle) are fakes and who think I need a lesson on German military regulations pertaining to the wear of the Iron Cross and its various accessories. Nor does the argument that something must be OK because it looks OK cut any ice with me. Very talented people have been assembling Imperial and Third Reich-era German medal bars for a long time. I knew one man in London, now living in California, whose work was of a very high order. Do any of you remember, for instance, the scandal over the Paul Conrath RK document back in 2004? George Petersen was taken in by a couple of very high end forgeries and a smooth story. I was being flippant about the Spange but Model was photographed wearing in both in his buttonhole and on his ribbon bar.

PK

[Les]

I don't really think there is any scope for an adult discussion with people who resort to playground abuse........

Amen to that.

In this thread, I was accused of not being an "Imperial collector" because some people have selective memories. If they would care to take the time to look in the archives, I have posted documented groupings of items, uniforms, and other items from my personal collection. Recently, I've become reluctant to advertise what I have. After being on the receiving end of an armed house invasion with the perpetrators looking and asking for some very specific items, and three burglaries of my house in the last decade, I've reconsidered who I tell what I have, etc. I've never kept things at home, and didn't loose anything when those events took place. A collector friend of mine lost a two million dollar plus collection stored in a bank vault, when the thieves were able to by-pass -all- of the security systems who knew what they were looking for, and how to get it.

When you find yourself on the wrong end of a gun pointed directly at your head, you learn to re-consider your life and behavior.

Enough of me, and I won't respond in kind to negative remarks aimed at me.

The "Model bar" as Paul has insisted has to be Model's, and it has been claimed the bar was not updated to include the 1939 bar to the 1914 EKII, and other WWII era decorations he would have been entitled to wear.

Period photos, show Model wearing several uniforms and the details are interesting, because they show changes over time. I'll post some of these taken from various on-line sources, many of them with Bundesarchiv markings. They are shown not for self use, but in line with fair use copyright practices, to help others on this forum make their own independent decisions based on facts.

Photo #1 shows Model and Bush sometime after Model received his 1939 EKI Spange, and wearing a long ribbon bar. Noticeably absent in the photo is any buttonhole ribbon. Also see the second photo which clearly shows -no- buttonhole ribbon, and the presence of medal bar loops on his chest. If he wore a ribbon or medal bar in those loops, regulations would have required the 1914 EKII ribbon to have the 1939 bar if he did not wear the ribbon in his buttonhole.

There are other photos showing him wearing a buttonhole ribbon and bar to the 1914 EKII, but after the winter of 1941, he seems to have stopped wearing that ribbon, in favor of wearing the Ostfront medal ribbon bar in the buttonhole instead. There are several photos showing him wearing this ribbon, without an EKII ribbon in the same buttonhole, even as late as Feb 1945. By 1944, he was entitled to wear the Honor Clasp of the Wehrmacht ribbon/clasp attachment but appears to have preferred the "Frozen Meat" medal after the first winter in Russia, and through the rest of the war.

[Les]

A few mid-war photos in color, to show the color of the ribbon in the buttonhole. It was not a 1914 ribbon at all.

[Les]

Another in color...