Mongolia ORDER OF THE RED COMBAT BANNER

GlennC · March 12, 2006

CRB

Lingqi · March 13, 2006

These are very impressive! Thank you for sharing. Have you got any related documents with them?

GlennC · March 13, 2006

I have documents but not for this orders. As far as I know this order never being issued. They have being sold by Central Bank of Mongolia as leftovers from communist era.

Lingqi · March 14, 2006

I have documents but not for this orders. As far as I know this order never being issued. They have being sold by Central Bank of Mongolia as leftovers from communist era.

I am a bit confused here. As for my #3 ORBCV with s/n 60, the seller told me that this order was issued to a russian. For those orders with high SN, they might not be issued. So what range of SN was issued or these numbered orders have never been issued at all?

March 14, 2006

"For those orders with high SN, they might not be issued. So what range of SN was issued or these numbered orders have never been issued at all?"

That is JUST the sort of question we hope to be able to get answers for here, working among ourselves and comparing issued Orders Books for a serial numbers/awards dates data base.

It would help if we had anybody who could actually read Mongolian, too! :beer:

fjcp · March 15, 2006

Am I losing my sanity??
(OK, don't answer THAT.)
Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.
BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ???

I was wondering about this very issue myself. I posted a picture in another thread of a highly decorated fellow and where there is definitely something there.

It almost looks like a Roman numeral "II" and if there is enamel surrounding the number it certainly doesn't look like the dark blue enamel we see on the known orders.

ps. I have a slightly larger version of this picture so if you want it I'll gladly email it to you.

Edited March 15, 2006 by fjcp

GlennC · March 15, 2006

I think the same person pictured in Dr. Batushing book.

There is a color picture of him, all his RCB orders have blu enamel.

Vatjan · March 15, 2006

Yes, I think this is indeed Jamain Lkhagvasuren. p22 Dr B's book.

He received the Title of Hero of Mongolia posthumously.

He apparantly joined the army at the a very early age by the age of 20 he became a General.

He was very popular among the people, who called him the "Young Commander"

Later on he became Defence Minister from 1960-1970

Here's another older pic of him

:off topic: I know, I know, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

rboomsma · March 17, 2006

My Combats ser's

ORDER OF COMBAT RED BANNER,1945 1st award ser 1332 type 1

ORDER OF COMBAT RED BANNER TYPE-2 1st award (PIN BACK) ser 3580

ORDER OF COMBAT RED BANNER,1945 #2 ser 85 type 1

ORDER OF COMBAT RED BANNER,1945 #3 ser 125 type 1

I have in my collection:
T1: Screwback - 3 rivets # 50, 704, 1871, 1876, 1974, 2244
2nd award # 12, 98, 224, 248
3rd award # 106, 110, 168
4th award # 86

Ed_Haynes · March 17, 2006

For cross-checking, and I think there are no new datspoints in what you have listed, but I need to check:

(A 21/M 5.1) -- THE ORDER OF MILITARY VALOR -- (small star, 3 maker?s marks, no s/n); (1926-31)

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (Baildaani gav'yaany ulaan tugiin odon) (Орден Боевого Красного Знамени) (1931-40)

(A 21.2/M 5.2) -- 1st award: Type 1 (large star, МОНДВОР, s/n No); Low = 188/High = 613

Type 2 (large star, МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР, s/n No); Low = 318/High = ??

(A 21.3) -- 2nd award (large star): Low = ??/High = ??

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (Baildaani gav'yaany ulaan tugiin odon) (Орден Боевого Красного Знамени) (1940-45)

(A 22.1?/M 6.1) -- 1st award: Type 1.1 (МОНДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets); Low = 110/High = ???Type 1.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets); Low= 44/High=212

Type 1.3.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom); Low = 306/High = 2401Type 1.3.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN directly below screwpost); Low = 1240/High = 2581

(A 22.2)/M 6.2) -- 2nd award: Low = ??/High = ??

(A 22.3/M 6.3) -- 3rd award: Low = ??/High = ??

(A 22.4/M 6.4) -- 4th award: (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark placement unknown; 4 rivets); Low = 138/High = 150

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR (Baildaani gav'yaany ulaan tugiin odon) (Орден Боевого Красного Знамени) (1945--)

(A 23.1?/M 7.1.1) -- 1st award: Type 1.1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost); Low = 50/High = 2789

Type 1.2 (as above, but with Cyrillic ?B? mintmartk); Low = ??/High = 1901

(A 24.1/M 7.2) -- Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock); Low = 3160/High = 4449

(A 24.1/M 7.2) -- Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock); Low = 4685/High = 5380

(A 24.2) -- Type 4 (pinback, bronze); Low = 5512/High = 5607

(A 23.2/M 7.1.2) -- 2nd award: Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost; Low = 12 /High = 398

(A 23.3/M 71.3) -- 3rd award: Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost; Low = 6/High = 200

(A 23.4/M 7.1.4) -- 4th award: Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost; Low = 10/

High = 86

Edited March 17, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

Dolf · March 18, 2006

"For those orders with high SN, they might not be issued. So what range of SN was issued or these numbered orders have never been issued at all?"
That is JUST the sort of question we hope to be able to get answers for here, working among ourselves and comparing issued Orders Books for a serial numbers/awards dates data base.
It would help if we had anybody who could actually read Mongolian, too!

Rick,

A 23.4 ? about 3 or 4 might have been issued

A 23.3 ? about 10 - 15 might have been issued

A 23.2 ? no more than 40 might have been issued

Dolf

GlennC · March 18, 2006

Ed if you noticed my RCB # 1871 has letter B mintmark too.

Vatjan · March 18, 2006

For cross-checking, and I think there are no new datspoints in what you have listed, but I need to check
(A 22.4/M 6.4) -- 4th award: (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark placement unknown; 4 rivets); Low = 138/High = 150

Mint placement is at 12 o'clock

Edited March 18, 2006 by vatjan

Ed_Haynes · March 28, 2006

Feel silly posting these, as they all kind of look the same, but these are the latest "twins" to come to live with me.

"2" -- 353

"3" -- 161

For teh census. I suspect neither was ever issued.

Dolf · March 28, 2006

Feel silly posting these, as they all kind of look the same, but these are the latest "twins" to come to live with me.
"2" -- 353
"3" -- 161
For teh census. I suspect neither was ever issued.

Ed,

Post the reverses, that's where they are all different

Yes, both unisuued.

Dolf

Dolf · March 29, 2006

Question:

Do all A 23.1 have that small circle of about the size of a rivet at 12 o'clock? Those with the kind of inverted "B" as well as those that don't have the inverted "B"?

Or are there some A 23.1 that don't have that small circle at 12 o'clock? And if they exist, do they have the inverted "B" or not, or some do and others don't?

Please check your pieces and let me know what you find.

Thanks in advance,

Dolf

fjcp · March 30, 2006

My A 23.1 with serial# 715 has neither the circle at 12 nor the inverted B. It just has the serial number at 6 and for the rest it is completely unmarked.

I'll try and post a pic if I can get my camera to work.... :angry:

fjcp · March 30, 2006

here she is....

Dolf · March 30, 2006

My A 23.1 with serial# 715 has neither the circle at 12 nor the inverted B. It just has the serial number at 6 and for the rest it is completely unmarked.
I'll try and post a pic if I can get my camera to work....

fjcp,

Thanks!

So, A 23.1 exists with the circle at 12 o'clock and without the circle!

Some with the circle also have the kind of inverted "B", some others don't!

A 23.1 #715 of "fjcp" has neither the circle nor the inverted "B".

Does anyone have one without the circle, but WITH the inverted "B"?

By the way, what could this kind of inverted "B" ... be? (no joke intended :off topic: :cheeky: )

A mint mark? Why?!... What would be the meaning of it?

A maker's mark? I guess not as this inverted "B" seems to be a stamped mark and I think (just my thoughts, not really sure) that maker's mark are usually hand engraved, right?

Other opinions?

Thanks,

Dolf

Dolf · March 30, 2006

here she is....

Thanks! :cheers:

Now I'm curious to know if someone has one of these (without that circle at 12 o'clock like yours) but WITH the inverted "B" .

Dolf

GlennC · March 30, 2006

fjcp,
Thanks!
So, A 23.1 exists with the circle at 12 o'clock and without the circle!
Some with the circle also have the kind of inverted "B", some others don't!
A 23.1 #715 of "fjcp" has neither the circle nor the inverted "B".
Does anyone have one without the circle, but WITH the inverted "B"?
By the way, what could this kind of inverted "B" ... be? (no joke intended )
A mint mark? Why?!... What would be the meaning of it?
A maker's mark? I guess not as this inverted "B" seems to be a stamped mark and I think (just my thoughts, not really sure) that maker's mark are usually hand engraved, right?
Other opinions?
Thanks,
Dolf

Inverted "B" stands for in Russian word "ВЕРХ"- TOP. This mark was made to locate proper position of the star for assembling. It's inverted so when you look from front site it looks like normal Russian letter B.

Dolf · March 30, 2006

Inverted "B" stands for in Russian word "ВЕРХ"- TOP. This mark was made to locate proper position of the star for assembling. It's inverted so when you look from front site it looks like normal Russian letter B.

Thanks Glenn. Your explanation seems perfectly logical and I guess you're probably right.

Now what I don't understand is why some pieces have this B and some others don't!

In some cases they needed to have it for knowing the proper position for assembling, and in other cases they didn't need it?

And any reason for that small circle at 12 o'clock? Would this also be for the same reason? And if yes, why in some cases they have the circle AND the B, and in other cases neither of these?!

Thanks,

Dolf

Bob · April 2, 2006