Mongolia ORDER OF THE RED COMBAT BANNER

[Sergei]

Just a thought - could we have everything to do with this auction in a separate thread? I think this has been a sufficiently important developement for collectors to merit an independent line of thinking.

I have to say, I was appalled by this auction. It seems to me that the people of Mongolia have been sold short (once again!). I just could not believe it when I saw the prices for the items sold from national reserves. No national banker should be allowed to do things like that!!!

I do hope that it was a part of a business transaction with "the Northern Businessmen" coming soon to do something good for the benefit of the people of Mongolia.

Apologies for too much emotion on the 'Gentlemen's Forum'.

Sergei

[Guest Rick Research]

I think keeping track of never awarded Orders' serial numbers is certainly worthwhile.

As Ed says, those are of minimal curiosity "value." I don't care how long ago they were made... they were never awarded to anybody and are thus of no more importance than design proposals.

I wouldn't pay a single National Currency Unit for something beyond scrap value for a never issued piece.

What kind of collection "needs" One Of Everything... when MOST of those "everythings" never existed out in the real world? Without being awarded to a real person for something real, a never issued piece is nothing more than an OLD window display item.

[new world]

I think keeping track of never awarded Orders' serial numbers is certainly worthwhile.

As Ed says, those are of minimal curiosity "value." I don't care how long ago they were made... they were never awarded to anybody and are thus of no more importance than design proposals.

I wouldn't pay a single National Currency Unit for something beyond scrap value for a never issued piece.

What kind of collection "needs" One Of Everything... when MOST of those "everythings" never existed out in the real world? Without being awarded to a real person for something real, a never issued piece is nothing more than an OLD window display item.

Rick,

If you ever come accross any non-awarded orders - send them my way. I'll be happy to pay you more than scrap value

On the serious note - there's always will be market for un-awarded medals. There are many collectors out there who never ordered a piece of research.

Going by your logic - anything exept Soviet serial numbered awards should be selling for slightly more than scrap value. Let's see - value of silver in German Knight Cross is about $40 - how come they do cost close to $10,000 these days? Or Russian Horde EK1, or recent batch of mint Deshler KVK1 - why do they go for a lot more than issued salty pieces?

William

[Ed_Haynes]

This raises some interesting questions, and makes us focus on the fuzzy boundary zone between phaleristics and numismatics.

-- If one's focus is on these things as history (phaleristics) anything that wasn't awarded and isn't somehow linkable to the recipient (by being named or numbered or at least potentially researchable) is of only limited interest. Items that cannot by their very nature be attributed or researched (e.g., a Third Reich Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross) or was never awarded (e.g., surplus stock sold off by the Mongolian State Bank) are, at best, of only limited interest. For those of this doctrinal persuasion, the preservation of groups is an absolute necessity. The recent research-based ability to reinstill history into some (but by no means all) pre-1918 German medal groups brings them, I guess, into the lower ranges of this category?

-- If one's focus is on these things as things (numismatics), with no more focused historical content than, say, a coin of Diocletian might hold. This mode of study focuses on such issues as design history (including prototypes), numbers awarded (or not, the difference is only technical here), or the evolution of detailed typologies of awards (e.g. type 3.5.29.4 awarded from March to May of 1953). That an award may have been awarded to an identifiable individual or be part of a group is something between a fact of mild interest and a nagging inconvenience (in that groups may include things of only marginal interest). The question as to whether an award is of contemporary manufacture to the period of award may (Third Reich German) or may not (U.S. awards) be of great concern, though it can give rise to extensive and often animated debate and discussion.

Many of us (myself included) are apostates, gleefully transgressing the boundary separating these categories and mixing aspects of both doctrinal traditions (personally, I'm maybe 80% phaleristics, 15% numismatics, 5% magpie collector of sparkly things that grab my interest).

[new world]

I understand that some of us place great importance on research and are very excited about pissibility of Mongolian awards being researchable, but I think we should scale down our expectations.

First, not all research is the same. You can get citation for long service, which I suspect will be typical for many Red Banners. To me such citation is not interesting at all (as compared to citations for some heroic deed), I would consider it waste of money and it's not very far from being un-issued award.

Second, some Mongolian awards may never be researchable due to various reasons, like most of NKVD and labor awards in Soviet system. What do you do with such awards then? Sell them as scrap metal?

William

[Sergei]

You can get citation for long service, which I suspect will be typical for many Red Banners. To me such citation is not interesting at all (as compared to citations for some heroic deed), I would consider it waste of money and it's not very far from being un-issued award.

William,

I do appreciate what you said, in my (admittedly tiny by comparison) collection I have medals that have been researched to heroic accomplishments and I also have medals that will never become researchable (like a Soviet Combat Service medal wth a s/n under 6000, i.e. from the 1939 era). But the prized item in my collection is the unnumbered Combat Service Medal, a long-cervice award (15 years), technically a piece of scrap silver, except it was given to my father. See what I mean?

Sergei

[ub6365]

Just a thought - could we have everything to do with this auction in a separate thread? I think this has been a sufficiently important developement for collectors to merit an independent line of thinking.

I have to say, I was appalled by this auction. It seems to me that the people of Mongolia have been sold short (once again!). I just could not believe it when I saw the prices for the items sold from national reserves. No national banker should be allowed to do things like that!!!

I do hope that it was a part of a business transaction with "the Northern Businessmen" coming soon to do something good for the benefit of the people of Mongolia.

Apologies for too much emotion on the 'Gentlemen's Forum'.

Sergei

No national banker should be allowed to do... Frankly speaking it was just cleaning of national treasures (I do not think that many other Central banks hold something like this, maybe just something extra rare). Also our bankers are not specialists in faleristic issues, the most they had -->just consultation from one of the "gray" dealers (who became main buyer as I understand)...

[new world]

No national banker should be allowed to do... Frankly speaking it was just cleaning of national treasures (I do not think that many other Central banks hold something like this, maybe just something extra rare). Also our bankers are not specialists in faleristic issues, the most they had -->just consultation from one of the "gray" dealers (who became main buyer as I understand)...

This is just great, a dealer priced awards at the levels he was comfortable paying. No wonder sale prices are so low.

This guy should be prosecuted and punished for cheating Mongolian bank. The least they can do is to make him pay additional sum for purchase price, I am sure with the profits he made it will not hyrt him if he paid double of original price.

But keeping in mind results of privatization sales in former socialist counries (I recently read that proceeds from privatization sales in Russia during 90s were around pitiful $30 billion - that's for thousands of enterprises, inlcuding natural resources such as oil, gas, metals, etc) - Mongolians did well.

William

[new world]

Red Banner 2 with relatively low SN 54

[new world]

front of RB2 SN 54

[Ed_Haynes]

Just in. What I believe to be a fake type 3.1.

See also: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13677&st=33

[monfort1]

Hi

I know this type is a very common one, but it could be my first ORBC...

Please, do you think this order is genuine (it looks good to me, but advice are welcome ...!):

[fjcp]

Hi

I know this type is a very common one, but it could be my first ORBC...

Please, do you think this order is genuine (it looks good to me, but advice are welcome ...!):

HI there Eric,

I think that this one is just fine.....

JC

[Ed_Haynes]

At first glance I would agree with JC. The serial number looks a little odd, but these brass ones often have strange numbering.

[monfort1]

Hi

Thank you both for your help. So, genuine. It is time for bidding now.

[fjcp]

Hi

Thank you both for your help. So, genuine. It is time for bidding now.

well it's at $386.99 so you might be better off paying $445 for this one from Igor.

Both are over priced if you ask me, but at this point I think the screw back is a better buy....

JC

screwbackorcb

[Ed_Haynes]

Good point!

[fjcp]

If you really have to have one you could also go for this one from Liverpoolmedals.....

This is rather an interesting coincidence....

They have #3923 for sale at 145 pounds or $285 US.

So right now that's 100 US less than the Ebay one. They are slow to remove sold items though so you might be out of luck...

Anyway good luck with Mongolian orders they are very addictive!!!

Cheers

JC

liverpoolmedals

[monfort1]

If you really have to have one you could also go for this one from Liverpoolmedals.....

This is rather an interesting coincidence....

They have #3923 for sale at 145 pounds or $285 US.

So right now that's 100 US less than the Ebay one. They are slow to remove sold items though so you might be out of luck...

Anyway good luck with Mongolian orders they are very addictive!!!

Cheers

JC

liverpoolmedals

Hi FJCP and Ed

Let's see... I have made some other purchases with this delaer so, all in all, it could be a normal price.

This type of ORBC is commonly available for 280 - 320e here in France (if available....)

Rude, I know

Anyway, thank you for the links. I hadn't noticed the ORBC at Liverpool shop (which is known to be expensive, generally speaking)

Here my Mongolian search list:

Khalkin Gol Badge

N19 : 50 Years of the Great Construction (1926-76)

N 04: Outstanding Construction Worker of the MPR

B 32: veteran of the revolutionary struggle

C 57 :70 Years of the MPA 1921 1991

C 19: Memory 45-85

C 20 :Honoray Medal

A 37: for Combat Service, Type 3 Var 2 (in silver-plated brass), circa 1990s - 2000s

C 42 : Glory of Veteran

C 38: MPA

C 05 : Partisan Badge 1921

And the picture of my search list on the body !

[fjcp]

Good luck with your Mongolian quest but I think that the C05 will be very very hard to find now.....

I was lucky I got into this early but I haven't seen one in over a year, maybe longer.....

I think there are only about 400 of these out there, but you never know you might get lucky...

Cheers

JC

[Ed_Haynes]

Actually, these capitalist-competitive days, I think the B32 may actually be harder to find than the C05, though neither will be easy. (Know an antique store in UB that had THREE nice B32s, a year ago.)

Why choose this picture to "reconstruct"?

Glad I got my badges when I could, from The Source.

[monfort1]

Hi Ed

When I have seen this picture in a newspaper, I thought it was a good opportunit? to start collecting Mongolian awards, because this person is very symbolic.

So I am trying to "reconstruct" his medals....it's a long way, but funny !

PS: I got the ORBC shown few posts ago..

Edited March 11, 2008 by monfort1

[Ed_Haynes]

I understand, I do, really . . . Mongolian awards are incredibly seductive. Be afraid. Many of us have gone (too far?) down that dangerous road!

But I'd not trade that for anything!

Welcome to the addiction.

[monfort1]

Hi Ed

Addiction has already started....

[Ed_Haynes]

OK . . . .

Too late for you, Eric, too late for you.

Welcome aboard!