EK I, named to NCO in 1. Kampfwagen Abt

[Vic Diehl]

Follow-up info as requested

This rare named EK I. is still being researched as it was just recently obtained. Fortunately during the US history of this piece it never left the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. The Cross was purchased by a local collector/dealer from the son of a 29th Infantry Division veteran in the 1990's. It was quickly sold to an Iron Cross collector where the cross remained in his collection until August 2010. With the economy taking a dive the collector brought the named cross and two Third Reich EK I's to a local gun show where he sold them all. The named and cased EKI was sold back to the original dealer for $400. The dealer called my attention to the award and we completed a trade. I gave him about 20 Nazi medals, i.e. Mother crosses, SA celluloid day badge, RAD long service medals, West Wall and Eastern Front medals, an Italian North African medal and a few cloth Heer eagles. He was happy with the trade and so was I.

I would add that when I first saw the engraving I knew it was correct for the period, beyond any doubt. I had learned period engraving from studying named and presented navy daggers for over 30 years. However, I was not exactly sure what a "Kampfwagen" was since I am a navy dagger collector. I was thinking it was an armed troop carrier. I talked with my friend in Hannover Germany while I was at the show and he immediately told me "Kampfwagen" was a tank. He also said that there were only a total of 20 A7V's produced and by August 1918 only 5 or 6 remained. He further said that these units were very small and finding a named cross from an A7V crew member is about as rare as finding a PLM. Not nearly as expensive, but certainly as rare. So a fun day at a gun show for everyone.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Vic Diehl

[Claudius]

Follow-up info as requested

This rare named EK I. is still being researched as it was just recently obtained. Fortunately during the US history of this piece it never left the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. The Cross was purchased by a local collector/dealer from the son of a 29th Infantry Division veteran in the 1990's. It was quickly sold to an Iron Cross collector where the cross remained in his collection until August 2010. With the economy taking a dive the collector brought the named cross and two Third Reich EK I's to a local gun show where he sold them all. The named and cased EKI was sold back to the original dealer for $400. The dealer called my attention to the award and we completed a trade. I gave him about 20 Nazi medals, i.e. Mother crosses, SA celluloid day badge, RAD long service medals, West Wall and Eastern Front medals, an Italian North African medal and a few cloth Heer eagles. He was happy with the trade and so was I.

I would add that when I first saw the engraving I knew it was correct for the period, beyond any doubt. I had learned period engraving from studying named and presented navy daggers for over 30 years. However, I was not exactly sure what a "Kampfwagen" was since I am a navy dagger collector. I was thinking it was an armed troop carrier. I talked with my friend in Hannover Germany while I was at the show and he immediately told me "Kampfwagen" was a tank. He also said that there were only a total of 20 A7V's produced and by August 1918 only 5 or 6 remained. He further said that these units were very small and finding a named cross from an A7V crew member is about as rare as finding a PLM. Not nearly as expensive, but certainly as rare. So a fun day at a gun show for everyone.

Hello Vic;

Yes, it would be rare indeed. Very rare. Could you please send some close up photos of the engraving.

Thank you

[Vic Diehl]

close-up

[Vic Diehl]

Claudius:

Here is an extreme close-up. I am pointing to the tool marks but there is much to see in this pic other than those.

[Chris Boonzaier]

That looks to be a real treat!

I dont know how this could be authenticated beynd any doubts... but the story seems to be believable if it can be confirmed as a vet pick up.

I am unaware of any role of members being availible... if one was to turn up with that name on i think it would be a home run....

[Vic Diehl]

Chris:

This is a fun piece to look at and think about. If it could only tell us some stories about what it would be like being on the inside of an A7V with all of the engine and track noise, fumes, shouting soldiers, machine gun fire, booming cannon and clanging cannon shells. Then there is the horror that comes when you are in a real battle and someone is shooting back.

Speaking of stores about war souvenirs I have one simple rule. Listen to the stories, learn all you can, but BELIEVE ONLY in the piece! In 40 years of collecting I have heard hundreds of great stories, but that never was the deciding factor for purchase after the first time gettig stung. These days the surviving vets are few and many of them collected items after the war to enhance their collections.

Another thing I put little stock in are computer pictures. If I cannot hold rare stuff in my hands, especially named or presented items than I simply let it pass.

I have also learned is that you cannot fake real age. You can at the surface level to the naked eye, but if you scientifically examine a piece you can, with experience, tell if it has been there. I enjoy shooting flintlock Kentucky rifles and I have one custom made for my body. My builder is a master at aging guns, I have watched him do it. I have seen experts pick them up and talk about how old they are.

I am not going to bore you with more chit-chat. To REPEAT--- Believe only the object, enjoy the stories and remember the devil is in the details. :cheers:

Edited September 3, 2010 by Vic Diehl

[Chris Boonzaier]

Speaking of stores about war souvenirs I have one simple rule. Listen to the stories, learn all you can, but BELIEVE ONLY in the piece!

Id say that is the rule in about 80% of the cases. However... I have a small circle of friends who occasionally pull things out of the woodwork and within that small circle trust is the name of the game.

When one of them says to me "I got this from the widow of XXX" I know he is not BSing... if I had heard it from 8 other guys I may not.

I think it is like that all over in life, you need to know who to trust.

I once had the Combined Pilot Observer badge to Obstlt Heinz von Holleben. He was commander of KG 10´0, the worlds first pathfinder bomber unit.

No idea how many missions he flew over London in the battle of britain... full of history...

I tried to pass the story on along with the badge, but the guy did not seem that interested.... I suppose it is just another one in a drawer collected according to makers mark now....

Sometimes the story is what makes the badge....

[Vic Diehl]

Chris:

Of course you are right, many times the story makes the piece interesting. I collect Japanese swords. I recently bought a WW II Japanese Officers sword from a local vet. The blade is a beautiful hand forged Kaneaki Gendaito, which I just spent the money on to have polished.

I went to the vets modest home. He and his sweet wife were both 84 years old. The aging veteran repeated his story to me with a sense of real pride of his days as a soldier. He was in the Americal Division. In winter of 1945 they were conducting mopping up operations in the Lyete Gulf. He was a forward artillery observor, battling through the heat and hell of that conflict. He relayed to me that he was so tired and hungry so he sat down in the high grass for bite to eat and drink. Upon sitting down in the tall grass and weeds he realized he was sitting by a dead Japanese officer. He looked around to be sure he was alone and then picked up the Japanese Sword as "his" war souvenir. He strapped that sword to his back and carried it daily for the rest of the conflict, then to other operations and finally home. He was so proud of that sword that he kept it oiled for all of those years since the war.

One other fact about the sword that is interesting is that the knot used on the sword was from the Russo-Japanese War. So the Japanese Officer carrying this sword was most likely honoring one of his warrior ancestors. If that sword had been at a gun show the black portepee would have been ripped off as incorrect and a nice brown and blue one substituted.

Finishing the sword story....

As I was sitting in the vets living room examining the blade for a "hada" I realized that there were pictures of 4 young men and their wives on his coffee table. I asked who they were and he proudly exclaimed that they were his sons!! I asked, surely one of these sons wants this sword that you have carried from Hell and back? No, he said, they don't care about such things. It is just as well,as their wives would never allow it in their homes. How can this be, is about all I thought. I paid my money, gave them both my best wishes and a hardy handshake, thanked him for his service and headed out into the night with my sword.

That story really made the sword interesting. In fact I have the story printed on rice paper and attached to the scabbard. That is a story that should never be forgotten.

[Chris Boonzaier]

That story really made the sword interesting. In fact I have the story printed on rice paper and attached to the scabbard. That is a story that should never be forgotten.

Nice piece to have! Lucky you! :-)

Thats what makes collecting interesting.

[Vic Diehl]

We are closing in-----

Fritz Hammer, born Januar, 2nd, 1891 in Reutlingen, Feldwebel Armee Telegraphen Abteilung, AOK.4 :violent:

[elbavaro]

Coming back on this namend EK 1: Can anybody proof that Fritz Hammer changed from "Armee Telegraphen Abteilung AOK 4" to "Kampfwagen Abteilung 1"?

[dond]

Could we see the whole cross, front and back? It would be a shame for this thread not to document the whole award.

[ccj]

How many Frtiz Hammer would have served? Sounds like a not so rare name.

[turtle]

We are closing in-----

Fritz Hammer, born Januar, 2nd, 1891 in Reutlingen, Feldwebel Armee Telegraphen Abteilung, AOK.4

I don´t think, this could be the right Fritz Hammer, because he was killed in an accident on the 22. of september 1918 as a lieutenant.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/6942126

[elbavaro]

OK, any other ideas?

[The Prussian]

Maybe we can sort out by looking at the battles of the Abteilung 1.

If the cross is from 1st october, for what action did he recieved it? There were six battles before october, in which the 1st Abt. was involved.

21.3.: St. Quentin

24.4.: Villers-Brettoneux

1.6.: Görtz

9.6.: Matz

15.7.: Marneschutz

31.8.: Frémicourt

[elbavaro]

Well .... the only proof could be the answer of the question "was there a Hammer in the Kampfwagen Abteilung?".

[The Prussian]

That will be difficulty... I only have the names of the tank commanders, not of the NCOs.

The leaders were officers or NCOs. I have that list of the leaders, no Mr. Hammer.

But the crew of an A7V were 16 men. The signal NCO was a Vizefeldwebel.

If Mr. Hammer was a Feldwebel, I don´t think, he was in action in the tanks... so he might serve in his duty as the "etatmäßiger Feldwebel"

Edited July 13, 2014 by The Prussian

[elbavaro]

Well I have a lot of names but NO Hammer. Only an AC driver "Hammer" in the Freekorps Epp in 1919.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am guessing that the FK Epp did take over experianced Armoured car men?

Lets also not forget, there are plenty of men in such units who were not part of the Tank Crews themselves. The Abteilung would have had supply, medical and signals men who were part of the unit, but not in a tank...

In the same way there are plenty of men in a modern Tank unit who are not part of the crews.

Also, at this later date there are lots of awards for accumulated brave service during 4 years of war, these are not related to a certain action in 1918.

An interesting award, maybe someday the answer will turn up :-)

[elbavaro]

You are right Chris, but ..... still no proof for a Hammer in the Kampfwagen Abteilung.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I agree... but I am keeping an open mind.... I have an EK1 award document to a Leutnant d. Res in Sturmbataillon Rohr... he is not on some officers lists I have heard of, and is not mentioned n the SB Rohr History.... by chance i was able to nail his membership in the Battalion by a chance mention in the Sturm Bataillon 7 history.... it is not the only case where I have had officers in a Unit that slipped through the cracks when we have period documentation... I think NCOs and simple soldiers even more so...

Of course, that is no proof either way, just a possibility....

[The Prussian]

Thet´s right. Each Abteilung had one single Feldwebel.

Here is a strength-list of an A7V Abteilung (with 5 tanks):

A. Driving staff:

1 Captain or Lieutenant (Leader AND tank commander)

4 Lieutenants (Commanders of the other 4 tanks)

1 Unterzahlmeister

1 Feldwebel

1 Vizefeldwebel (Mechanic)

5 Unteroffiziere (Drivers)

10 gefreite (Driver and mechanics)

5 Unteroffiziere, Gefreite or enlisted men (Reserve)

4 Unteroffiziere

12 Gefreite and 42 enlisted men (Driver, Motorcyclist, Mechanics, Tailor, Shoemaker, Writer and div. workers)

5 enlisted men from the train

B. Weapon staff

a) from the MG-troups:

1 Lieutenant

10 Unteroffiziere, 10 Gefreite, 20 enlisted men (Tank crew)

5 Gefreite or enlisted men (Reserve)

3 Waffenmeistergehilfen (Unteroffiziere, Gefreite or enlisted men)

b) from the fieldartillery:

1 Lieutenant

5 Unteroffiziere, Gefreite and Richtkanoniere (Tank crew)

5 Gefreite or enlisted men (Reserve)

2 Waffenmeistergehilfen (Unteroffiziere, Gefreite or enlisted men)

C. Signal-staff

5 Vizewachtmeister (Tank crew)

4 Unteroffiziere

3 Gefreite or enlisted men

D. Other staff

1 Sanitäts-Unteroffizier

7 enlisted men of the train, workers

E. Vehicles

5 A7V

2 cars for staff

1 small lorry

1 lorry (Mechanic)

1 lorry (Tools)

1 lorry with trailer (Fuel)

5 lorries (each for a tank - support of ammo, tools etc)

1 motorcycle

1 Trailer with field-kitchen

[elbavaro]

Yes, because ... the Feldwebel was the "Spies" (mother of the Company)

[The Prussian]

Right! The "Etatmäßige"

And because he was the Spieß, he was not a crew member. But that doesn´t matter. The EK of the Spieß is rarer