Common sense ! Or why are there so many PlMs on ebay ?

[medalnet]

One of the most common emails I personally get is basically always about any Pour le M?rite, full size or miniature, freshly listed on eBay: "...is it original?"

Do people have a lack of common sense? Is collection of orders and decorations directly linked to faith and believe?

Take any other common WWI order decoration or medal. How often do you even find a ?regular? Albert Order 1st class with swords listed on eBay or a Zaehringer Lion knight 1st with swords, which is in the same rarity range then the PlM.

Doesn't it dawn on those "collectors" or shall I say fan of the PlM community that there is something wrong?

I admit to check my lottery ticket every time I play and realize it didn?t win - again. But what are the odds for a genuine PlM surfacing on eBay?

I am not saying one shouldn't check, but since those pieces on eBay are the same pieces over and over again it is almost mind boggling that people still think they are real.

Every science (Science of Orders and medals actually has a Latin term: ?Phaleristic?) has to do with the comparison of facts, evidence. So, people, go ahead and invest in time, books and start at least some research instead of asking the same stupid question over and over again.

And,...there is some help to start some fo the research:

http://www.medalnet.net/The_Pour_le_Merite.htm

http://www.pourlemerite.org/

http://www.theaerodrome.com/medals/germany/prussia_opm.php

Edited January 10, 2006 by medalnet

[Guest Rick Research]

I can only shake my head along with you.

This is because they are NOT collectors, they are "trophy" braggarts and "investment" speculators.

The frightening thing is that they NEVER bother to EVER find out anything about anything...

while presumably accumulating "collections" of dozens and dozens of 4 figure fakes.

One can only pity their next of kin when a lifetime's "treasures" turn out to be worthless garbage.

They are not interested in medal bar grade TRUE rarities because they do not have a clue what those are. They don't care, either. They know nothing. But they have LOTS of money to throw away

and that-- they think-- makes them elite, special, and "smarter" than everybody else.

[medalnet]

Thank you !

[Les]

There is an expression about standing at the corner of Hollywood and Vine in California: If you are able to wait long enough, sooner or later the entire world will pass by. That speaks to the eternal optimism in some people.

Ebay is a buyer and sellers market where anything that can be legally sold and bought, can be auctioned. That doesn't mean everything will be sold there. If you apply the statistical concept of probability, and the way free markets work, that doesn't mean a genuine PlM will never be offered for sale there. Because we haven't seen one so far, doesn't mean there will never come a time that might happen. Considering what ebay has been doing to on-line auction houses, militaria dealers and collectors, the collecting market has changed and continues to change. The traditional way of buying and selling common ten or more years ago, has been heavily influenced by ebay...and ebay will continue to affect militaria dealer sales.

Using the "rarity" argument to say that we shouldn't expect a PlM to be offered for auction on ebay, can be be applied to militaria dealers who also offer similar items on their sites (catalogues, or show tables). Because it's rare, shouldn't we then apply the same reasoning and logic to dealers who routinely offer rare medals and awards also? I can think of of more than one or two that routinely offer PlM's on their sites (one in a southern US state comes to mind immediately....), that are in the same category as the ebay offerings. Because a dealer offers bad items, doesn't mean that someday he might (accidentally) offer the real thing.

Movie film props are often one of a kind thing. Look at ebay prices for some items used by particular actors, and the prices the items bring. The item if one of a kind, might be technically "rare" but that doesn't mean it's desirable, or worth a specific amount.

Ignorance isn't limited to dealers or sellers. It's a common problem that doesn't know limits of age, gender, nationality, educational, or economic status. Buyers make mistakes, so do sellers.

The real issue isn't whether a rare award has a snowballs chance in hell of being offered on ebay, but the matter of whether dealers and bidders/buyers alike are knowledgable enough to advertise and sell, or bid and buy on items. Do people know what they are doing? Often times, the answer seems obvious.

Andreas, if a PlM itself is rare, then what about a PlM case being offered on ebay? Cases are rarer than the medal itself, and have a low survival rate. Obviously, I'm being tongue in cheek here, so please don't be offended...ok? Should I assume from what you've said that the chances of being offered a real Plm on ebay is very unlikely, that I should be even more sceptical if someone ever offered a PlM case (without medal) on ebay? If you read my comments above, I don't take that view at all.

On ebay, if it's legal to buy and sell, sooner or later it may and proabably will appear there. Whether those who offer and bid on items know what they are offering and bidding on is the real issue.

Regards,

Les

[medalnet]

Dear Les,

I am in full agrement of what you said. Yet it is obvious fact, that the same few fake models appear over and over on eBay again. Should this not be clue enough for most people?

(Of course one needs to pay attention over a periode of time, which some people do not invest into. For ebay I would say 2 month is sufficient to figure out that it is always the same stuff.)

Rartiy is indeed not the measure, as I can tell from my own experience.

As for the case...some Prussian cases are multifunctional.

Edited January 10, 2006 by medalnet

[Guest Rick Research]

paying attention for 2 months! THAT explains it--

all these "I want a Blue Max and I want it TODAY" people aren't AROUND for 2 months and never look on eBay again after they find their ONE "treasure!"

Of course, one has to wonder what these Instant Collectors are DOING with their spur of the moment purchases!

[Les]

paying attention for 2 months! THAT explains it--

all these "I want a Blue Max and I want it TODAY" people aren't AROUND for 2 months and never look on eBay again after they find their ONE "treasure!"

Of course, one has to wonder what these Instant Collectors are DOING with their spur of the moment purchases!

Rick,

It's worse than that. There are a small number of ebay trolls that can be predicted to keep on buying the same fakes or reproduction items over and over again. Some of them take a beating and keep on ticking worse than any Timex watch ever could.

Check the list of bidders on this recent "PlM" auction, and you'll see several of the same bidders time and again, many of them having apparently won other "PlM" items in the past (for example, DrRalph and Pleskujawa among others). Some of these guys are obsessed with whatever it is they think they are doing.

Les

Edited January 10, 2006 by Les

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello everyone:

I can't resist jumping in on this topic! I have been offered "genuine" PLM's by folks who thought that they had genuine treasures in the past. After arranging to view the pieces at their residences for possible purchase, I leave shaking my head also wondering how they came to buy such trash. Usually, they specialize in something else, such as uniforms, etc. They want a piece to "display", and create a "need" which is filled by the next unscrupulous dealer they run into. The last piece that I viewed even had a certificate of authentication from a well known 3rd Reich dealer in the UK (who has written a few books). The piece was a lovely counterfeit made in gold, with a case, but a counterfeit none-the-less. I usually don't have the heart to tell them what fools they are (and they usually don't want the truth anyway). I'm sure that they do like going around saying they have a "Blue Max", and that their family, neighbors, and the folks at the local gun show are most impressed. The last time that this happened, I told the fellow that the piece did not match what I wanted and I showed him a reference book ($20) which showed an original. He then asked that I get him a copy of the book (which I did get him) and we parted ways. It is a shame that he didn't invest $20 in a book before he paid however many thousands of hard-earned dollars for his piece of garbage. Greed of course is another factor, buyers on Ebay might think that they are getting "something for nothing" if they spend a few thousand on something that "looks" genuine and could be worth a lot more. I guess that I too am part of my problem (I am too polite to tell folks that have made a mistake). My good manners let them continue on convincing themselves until the thing moves on to the next unwitting victim!

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

[JBFloyd]

Having dealt with a number of these folks, I have found that they are not collectors. If you ask technical questions or give them technical information, they are confused and embarrassed.

They want something that "looks like" a picture in a book or in a movie. They do not see there is a difference between Taiwan-made and Godet-made. Furthermore, they don't care. They often think that they, as savvy buyers, made a killing buying that uniface PLM copy, while everyone else missed it. You cannot convince them otherwise and, if you try, they will assume that you are trying to steal their treasure.

I have met at least 7 "collectors" who own von Richtofen's medal group. In every case, they "knew" it was good, usually because they bought it from the vet who brought it back.

These folks think we have the problem, so I have left it at that. They're not worth ranting about. Sell them junk until they run out of money and go away.

[Luftmensch]

As someone who occasionally stands on the dealer side of the table--offering my treasures which took years to find, which cost a pretty penny, and which are in danger of making me a cynic--I believe you folks are overlooking something in your analysis.

MOST OF THESE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY WHAT SOMETHING IS WORTH !!!!!!

There is a psychological/emotional need by many ignorant collectors to get over on someone and "steal" an item, and that makes them sucker bait. 95% of people collecting WW1 aviation badges, for example, aren't going to pay more than $350-450! That creates a market opportunity. eBay is the perfect marketplace for "rarities" at all price points. All you have to do is believe, and avoid forums like this!

Edited January 11, 2006 by Luftmensch

[Mark M]

There is a psychological/emotional need by many ignorant collectors to get over on someone and "steal" an item, and that makes them sucker bait. 95% of people collecting WW1 aviation badges, for example, aren't going to pay more than $350-450! That creates a market opportunity. eBay is the perfect marketplace for "rarities" at all price points. All you have to do is believe, and avoid forums like this!

Fair is fair. The same can be said about a lot of dealers and sellers too.

The old saying is true - a fool and his money soon part their ways. If these folks weren't throwing thier money away on obvious fakes they would find somewhere else to spend it.

[Luftmensch]

Actually, I've become a lot more sympathetic while on the other side of the table towards dealers, even the crooks! I think very few "bad" dealers start out saying, "I think I'll start up a business selling fakes and screwing the public!" They, like a lot of suppliers today, are hammered over time on price and take the path of less resistance instead of finding a better way to make money. I have seen so many people at shows pass up a $1,000 badge only to eagerly clutch at its repro cousin for $150 with desire in their eyes...

[Mark M]

I have no problems with dealers selling repo's as just that - reproductions. Reproductions fill a void for some people who could not afford a rare piece for their collection otherwise. My beef is with the dealers who knowingly sell the repros as legite. Lets face it - those 7 people with von Richtofen's medals all bought them from someone selling them as such.

However, there is a mentally of collectors out there who collect on whims at best. They collect for the sake of collecting. What they collect today is something completely different from next week and so on. I collected pocket knives for years and recently sold off some of my duplicates on ebay. A doctor from Texas bought them. He asked me if I had any others. When he heard what I had he asked me to name my price for the entire collection. I thought he was kidding and gave him a price over 4 times their value. Three days later I had his money order in had. I shipped the knives and never heard a word from him. When I asked his secretary if he had received them she told me he never even opened the package. He was collecting vintage automobiles that week. Another fool and his money....

WOW, what timing! I just got an email from the Nigerian Oil Minister needing my personal banking information to help transfer some funds! What luck!

[Biro]

....the same few fake models appear over and over on eBay again. Should this not be clue enough for most people?.

There is nothing more to be said. Andreas's line sums it up perfectly. The same applies to the 1914 Weiderholungsspange. HOW MANY?????

Even I , a collector of not much more than three years, get emails about these ebay pieces.

There were THREE genuine makers of the PLM during WW1 and TWO of them had IDENTICAL PLM's.

How difficult can this subject be to research??????????

THERE ARE ONLY TWO!!!!!!!!

[attachmentid=22407]

Even the oddities, such as 'JHW' marked examples STILL have characteristics (notably the eagles) that conform exactly to one of these three makers.

I can forgive someone not being sure about a 1914 EK2 - hell, I'm not - but the PLM?

C'mon...

This isn't a tough research job... even I got through it.

Marshall

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

One can only agree with the points and statements raised and made above. While I will resist the temptation to elaborate on many of them, I would like to speak to a situation, category, whatever... as yet unmentioned.

We have at this forum an incredible amount of talent and knowledge relevant to the orders and decorations of Imperil Germany. I would ask that we keep it in mind that not every (what we would consider) legitimate collector is a member of this group. When I started collecting, almost thirty years ago, I wandered around ?alone? for a couple of years before I discovered OMSA and the fact that there were many otherwise perfectly sane people out there who also collected these little treasures. Fortunately, at that OMSA convention, in 1979, I met George Seymour and Eric Ludvigsen who were to become two of my very closest friends. For the next twenty plus years we, along with Neal O?Connor, and later Tony Colson, were like family.

We shared life and knowledge among ourselves, and of course with any others who asked. As time went on, even Tony and I were able to help the senior members. Tony?s knowledge is well known by most of the forum members - I was the slow learner; but able to be of help in other ways. I am sure that if they had kept a list of the many dumb questions I would ask over the ensuing years, we would all have a good laugh. My knowledge of PLM?s is woefully limited, and I know even less when it comes to Saxony - they aren?t my thing; but how many times have I explained whether the horse?s tail should be up or down (refer to the thread ?Changes?) or why this is a German, not British, Guelphic commander?s badge.

I am only asking that we remain tolerant of others?, especially new collectors, questions; and, above all, encourage them. We have a wonderful avocation, made so in great part by it?s members. Remember, the new collectors are its future; so again I ask, please be tolerant and encourage.

Respectfully,

Wild Card

[Gerd Becker]

Gentlemen,

i agree with all that has been said and especially Wild Cards last point is very important in my opinion. I have seen on other forum much too often that "High-End-collectors" not condescend(?) themselves to help out the Newbie. A lot of the literature for collectors is very expensive and some are working with a low budget, so many of them better spend their money for orders and medals than for Collectors literature, which is probably not smart, but understandable. Its good for these Newbies to have access to the knowledge of more experienced collectors.

I am very glad, that it is different to other forums here and i must say, i am learning much more under this congenial athmospere. We have some real experts for the most areas of collecting here, which are very cooperative with younger or newer collectors

Gerd

Edited January 11, 2006 by Gerd Becker

[Stogieman]

The only problem here, at least for me in the past, has been for every person who "comes into the fold" and does start to at least attempt to learn, to gain knowledge, to not just throw money away.... there's a dozen you contact in a very friendly "Gee, you might wish to consider" manner..... only to be verbally berated, harrassed and insulted. OK, I make no claim to being an expert at anything. Certain things I have some experience with. I try to pass that experience on when/where I can.

Unfortunately, theres a great number of people who feel they are infinitly smarter than me. OK, no problem....... Keep buying blind. It leaves the real pieces for me.

[Gerd Becker]

The only problem here, at least for me in the past, has been for every person who "comes into the fold" and does start to at least attempt to learn, to gain knowledge, to not just throw money away.... there's a dozen you contact in a very friendly "Gee, you might wish to consider" manner..... only to be verbally berated, harrassed and insulted. OK, I make no claim to being an expert at anything. Certain things I have some experience with. I try to pass that experience on when/where I can.

Unfortunately, theres a great number of people who feel they are infinitly smarter than me. OK, no problem....... Keep buying blind. It leaves the real pieces for me.

Thats true, Rick. They don?t deserve wasting time for them, i agree. But i am talking about the devoted collectors, the one, who noticable show real interest in the history behind the item and not only see the dollar involved. Thats one of the problems, the money involved in this hobby nowadays. If money is involved, greed or envy isn?t far away.

Gerd

[medalnet]

Fellow members,

I realy appreciate your input and your sharing your personal thoughts and experience with all of us.

I felt it was time to stand up and vent a little bit.

Since this is an open forum we will always have to deal with those that just want to make the quick buy, yet...

I do believe that helping is the basic engine on our area of collecting. Everybody starting up needs a trustworthy mentor. It is certainly easier today to find information then in the old days without internet and just a few books arround, but every beginner needs special attention since the more information today can sometimes be misleading.

I also think that even those who might be in for that one ride may catch on and possibly develop an interest that in the end makes our comunity even stronger and more fun.

[Luftmensch]

for every person who "comes into the fold" and does start to at least attempt to learn, to gain knowledge, to not just throw money away.... there's a dozen you contact in a very friendly "Gee, you might wish to consider" manner..... only to be verbally berated, harrassed and insulted.

This is what I'm on about. Do they think they're smarter? Or are they shooting the messenger? They don't appreciate the cognitive dissonance after getting over on a badge. If the price is too good to be true it usually is, but the hopefuls turn that on its ear. Someone who paid A LOT for something is going to move heaven and earth to find out the truth and get restitution, if appropriate! Someone who got a bargain is going to dig in and defend it--surprisingly often!

The degree of defence of a bad piece varies inversely to the sum of knowledge times the money squared

I think it all comes down to Freud, money and parental love!

Edited January 11, 2006 by Luftmensch

[dond]

The only problem here, at least for me in the past, has been for every person who "comes into the fold" and does start to at least attempt to learn, to gain knowledge, to not just throw money away.... there's a dozen you contact in a very friendly "Gee, you might wish to consider" manner..... only to be verbally berated, harrassed and insulted. OK, I make no claim to being an expert at anything. Certain things I have some experience with. I try to pass that experience on when/where I can.

Unfortunately, theres a great number of people who feel they are infinitly smarter than me. OK, no problem....... Keep buying blind. It leaves the real pieces for me.

I quit trying to help people bidding on crap for this very reason. If they are comfortable with it in thier collection I say fine. I won't have to compete with them for real items.

Don

[Guest Rick Research]

"I think it all comes down to Freud, money and parental love!"

Potty training must come into it too!

Even 30 years after first being taken in as a collecting apprentice there are HUGE areas I know nothing about (and since George is gone, now never will) but perhaps the advantage I had, starting as a poor kid was getting good advice from experts. I never had money to throw away-- and that hasn't changed! Perhaps less so, with adult responsibilities and expenses.

But if anything is obvious to us, it's that we DON'T know, at least we know who to go ask.

The 4-figure ebay creatures don't ask. Never. They think they already know everything. Somebody just put out a giant gubamint study on the causes and effects of incompetence, and (gasp!) discovered that the self-esteem of incompetents BLINDS them to their own shortcomings. They are supremely, irrationally, self-confident.

Reality does not intrude.

That's the sort of "untrainable" none of us will ever be able to reach.

[Luftmensch]

They are supremely, irrationally, self-confident. Reality does not intrude.

It's called FAITH-BASED BUYING. Faith that you can buy a Godet for 3,000 and save yourself 5-10 grand.

[Stogieman]

I cannot even tell you the number of times I've been abused for simply offering my unsolicited advice.... After 6 years of very vocal crusading about Imperial Aviation Badges I grow weary...... I still help in any way I can when I am asked, but I don't offer nearly as much as I used to. The sad thing is many times, even when asked, you still get abused for your own honesty......... kind of stinks, as they say...

I've had people go (literally) ballistic over badges that I've politely told them were wrong and why and what they should be like....... This is unfortunately usually after someone says "John told me only talk to you or..... Dealer X") because you know what you're doing...... So then you tell them what they absolutely don't want to hear and this is (almost always) followed by a "who the heck are you?" statement....... Umm, excuse me, I was the guy recommended to you by (insert name of Clown's friend) that told you "only speak with......"

The Moral of the story?

"Never Trust A Clown"

Frankly, I'd rather be here:

[JBFloyd]

I've evolved my response in those cases to little more than "I wouldn't buy it if offered to me" or "I would buy it if offered to me". If the questioner asks further, he'll get my reasons; if not, he can simply ponder my response. In any case, my initial response does not address the piece, only my level of interest.

Unsolicited advice only stokes the fire that may not have been there at first. And it's usually the one who offers the advice that becomes the villain.