American (US) Victory Medals

[oliver860]

Hello!

The Maritime Department found it necessary to list all participating ships whose crews were entitled to the bars, as well as the periods when each ship was entitled to receive a certain lath. This was determined by ND G.O. No. 528 of 25 April 1920. In this document, 1241 ships were listed, of which 105 ships were qualified by two slats, although only one lath can be issued to the crew.

Who has the text of ND G.O. No. 528?

[RobW]

Hello Oliver,

The list of Naval clasps and eligible ships is contained in print in the book 'The Call of Duty'.  There is also numerous websites that have the complete listing.  If you search for 'Naval clasps and service credits' you should be successful in your search.

Regards,
Rob

[oliver860]

Спасибо!

А ссылку можно получить?

С уважением!

[Bilco]

Gentlemen,

I regularly look through the US vics offered on eBay, and over time I’ve noticed that in some cases the suspension knob seems to be very insecurely attached to the planchet, with a very small area of solder.

I started to look at all the examples offered on eBay, as well as those on this thread and in my collection, and I think I’ve identified 3 variants of the knob-to-planchet soldering:

Type 1 – the solder bead extends almost the full width of the knob, or even wider.

Type 2 – the solder bead extends over approximately half the width of the knob.

Type 3 – the solder bead is very narrow.

Having identified these three types I started to wonder if they were just due to inconsistencies in the manufacturing process, or could they be attributed to one or other of the 3 firms that received contracts to produce the medals for the US Government. In an attempt to investigate this possibility I started to collect photos in which the medal and its box can be seen together. Now, I know that sellers can ‘marry’ an empty box with a medal in the expectation of getting a higher price, but I hoped that if I had a good number of examples I might be able to detect some trends.

The results for the examples I’ve collected so far are shown in this table:

Manufacturer	Type 1		Type 2		Type 3		Total
	No	%	No	%	No	%	No	%
Art Metal Works	5	62.5	8	27.5	7	50	20	39.2
S G Adams	3	37.5	12	41.4	2	14.3	17	33.3
Jos. Meyer			9	31.1	5	31.1	14	27.5
Total	8	15.7	29	56.8	14	27.5	51

 

So, it seems that there are not many Type 1 in the sample, most of which are in Art Metal Works boxes and none in Meyer boxes; the most common is the Type 2, with most in Adams boxes and the rest evenly split; and most of the Type 3 are in Art Metal Works boxes. It has to be said that the Type 2 were sometimes bordering on one or other of the other Types, so the result is somewhat subjective. Maybe it does all come down to inconsistencies in the manufacturing process after all.

Of course, the number of examples I’ve collected is quite small, and the analysis is offered in a light-hearted spirit. However, I’d be interested to hear your views, and maybe if you have examples of boxed US vics where the provenance is known, and you can be sure that the box and medal belong together, you might like to post pictures to see if it fits my analysis – or not …

 

[johnnymac]

Dear Bill,

This will keep you busy for awhile, hahaha

[oliver860]

Hello, friends!

Bought this! What are your opinions?

With respect!

[Herman]

French made copies of the 1920ties

[johnnymac]

I agree with Herman, these are not U.S. issued clasps. In my book on page 57 & 58.  I list this clasp as type 3 unofficial. The key to this clasp is the used of a upside down letter "W" used in place of the letter "M", note as seen on the top 4 of 8 clasps illustrated. This unknown manufacturer put out three different marked clasps. The lettering on three clasps  remained same on the front , it is where manufacturer placed the needed import stamp word/s "FRANCE" and "Made in France" on the backstrap.

Edited February 13, 2019 by johnnymac

[oliver860]

Привет! Мое недавнее приобретение! С уважением

[johnnymac]

5 hours ago, oliver860 said:

Hello! My recent purchase! respectfully

The medal you posted, is in my book and is listed as a reproduction type 2.  Two things to help a collector identify this an un-official medal is: one is the ball type suspension, the second is rays around the head numbering just eleven, and third is it marked on the rim at 6 o'clock. Last, this one is covered under Section 304 of the Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), articles of foreign origin imported into the U.S. shall be marked (made in) in a conspicuous place as legibly, indelibly, and permanently as the nature of the article will permit. This marking helps date this medal.

[graham]

One from my collection.

An official type 2 no clasps: -

[Bilco]

Good evening Gentlemen,

My latest acquisition ...

The planchet is a straight-forward French Reproduction, with no marks on the edge as to maker or MADE IN FRANCE.

The 4 clasps seem to match the description in Laslo's book, page 99, where the raised 'frame' around the wording, and the 'grained' background is mentioned.  They show the M like an inverted W that Jim Michels shows in his book as a Reproduction type 3 clasp. As can be seen in the last photo, the clasps are inside the ribbon, and the bottom three are held in place by stitches of red thread. The top clasp has a narrower backstrap than the others. The top clasp and the two bottom ones have thick ends, while the second is much thinner. I can't get to see the back of the back-straps to check for a MADE IN FRANCE stamp.

All-in-all, an interesting item, and I welcome your comments on it!

Bill

Edited September 7, 2019 by Bilco

[RobW]

On 07/09/2019 at 18:53, Bilco said:

Good evening Gentlemen,

My latest acquisition ...

The planchet is a straight-forward French Reproduction, with no marks on the edge as to maker or MADE IN FRANCE.

The 4 clasps seem to match the description in Laslo's book, page 99, where the raised 'frame' around the wording, and the 'grained' background is mentioned.  They show the M like an inverted W that Jim Michels shows in his book as a Reproduction type 3 clasp. As can be seen in the last photo, the clasps are inside the ribbon, and the bottom three are held in place by stitches of red thread. The top clasp has a narrower backstrap than the others. The top clasp and the two bottom ones have thick ends, while the second is much thinner. I can't get to see the back of the back-straps to check for a MADE IN FRANCE stamp.

All-in-all, an interesting item, and I welcome your comments on it!

Bill

Hello Bill,

A nice French produced US vic with some rarely seen French produced clasps.  These specific variety are rarely seen and are rare even among French collectors. There is a complete set of clasps including the rarely seen SOMME clasp.

A great pickup of a French produced US vic with rarely seen clasps.

Regards,
Rob

[sumserbrown]

Hi everyone,

I have been collecting medals for a long time but for the first time in a while I have done an inventory, and for the first time ever (for insurance purposes) I am taking photos and it is amazing the details you notice when you have a high-resolution photo you can expand.

I enjoy collecting the US Victory medals and bars but thanks to threads like this I am learning a great deal and beginning to be able to spot the differences - and it seems that several of the medals I bought as genuine are suspect. However, I need your expertise on some of these. I will post some (hopefully) genuine ones as examples, and some where I compare genuine with copies/frauds. Here is my first example, a Vittorio Veneto/ DS combination I bought 11 years ago.

So it is 'rare' so it was expensive but I don't think it is genuine and here is why I think that now:

1/ The horizontal stroke in the letter 'T' in the bars have vertical downward strokes at either end, whereas official clasps are just straight. However, note that the lettering matches the DS clasp so if it is faked then someone has also faked the DS clasp to match

2/ the ring has been opened - slight gap

3/ the stitching on the edges of the ribbon just below the clasp should be purple and here it appears to be white

Any thoughts from the team (apart from caveat emptor)?

thanks

Rob

 

This one I bought as a four clasp (AM, SM, MA, DS) medal typical of 4th division. Strange to want to fabricate this (there must be enough genuine ones out there to satisfy the market) but to me the SM clasp looks slightly different compared to the others - it has the thinner stars you normally see on the French made clasps (although it does not say Made in France on the back). The ring also looks like it has been opened at some point.

 

[sumserbrown]

 

 

 

and to finish off today, here is one that to me feels 100% right - the medal slip helps a lot!

best wishes to all

Rob

[sumserbrown]

My greatest regret in all my years of medal collecting was a not buying one I saw on Ebay about 14 years ago. It was a genuine US victory medal with some bars and it went for $1500 (!), but to this day I wish it had been me that bought it. It was the holy grail of US victory medals, a 9-bar version with the original clasp slip. Someone out there has it....? 

[sumserbrown]

This is today's unknown medal and I would like everyone's opinion please.

So this looks like a French-made reproduction from the 20's or 30's. It has a French-made St.Mihiel clasp (MADE IN FRANCE on back). It has the ball suspension, no 'FRASER' designed name on the obverse and no edge markings at all so it looks like it should be one of Laslo's Repro Type 1's but it is only 35.4mm diameter and 2.0mm thick at the 3o'clock.

Laslo thinks the repro Type 1 should be 36mm+

[oliver860]

On 11.09.2020 at 11:57, sumserbrown said:

Привет всем,

Я собираю медали в течение долгого времени, но впервые за долгое время я провел инвентаризацию, и впервые (в целях страхования) я фотографирую, и удивительно, какие детали вы замечаете, когда у вас есть фото высокого разрешения можно расширить.

Мне нравится коллекционировать медали и слитки Победы США, но благодаря таким тредам я многому научился и начинаю замечать различия - и кажется, что некоторые из медалей, которые я купил как подлинные, являются подозрительными. Однако мне нужен ваш опыт по некоторым из них. Я опубликую некоторые (надеюсь) подлинные в качестве примеров, а некоторые я буду сравнивать подлинные с копиями / подделками. Вот мой первый пример, комбинация Vittorio Veneto / DS, которую я купил 11 лет назад.

Так что это «редкость», поэтому это было дорого, но я не думаю, что это настоящее, и вот почему я думаю, что сейчас:

1 / Горизонтальная черта в букве «Т» на планках имеет вертикальные нисходящие черточки на обоих концах, тогда как официальные застежки прямые. Однако обратите внимание, что надпись соответствует застежке DS, поэтому, если она подделана, то кто-то также подделал застежку DS, чтобы она соответствовала.

2 / кольцо открыто - небольшой разрыв

3 / строчка по краям ленты чуть ниже застежки должна быть фиолетовой, а здесь она кажется белой

Есть какие-нибудь мысли от команды (кроме caveat emptor)?

Спасибо

Роб

 

 

 

 

 

Добрый день!

Ничего удивительного!

Планки производства Франции 1920-1930гг

[sumserbrown]

14 minutes ago, oliver860 said:

Добрый день!

Ничего удивительного!

Планки производства Франции 1920-1930гг

There is no 'MADE IN FRANCE' stamp on the back of the claps, but you could be correct in what you think. That for me would be OK if true as at least that way you could argue that they are old clasps designed for veterans and filling a gap in the market while the real medals were issued. My biggest concern would be if these were outright forgeries produced more recently for the specific purpose of fooling collectors. Is there any evidence to prove that these are 1920s or 1930s produced clasps?

thanks

Rob

[sumserbrown]

I have made some excellent medal purchases in the past, but I certainly made loads of mistakes too. I have learnt a lot from this forum so I don't mind owning up and helping others by pointing out the errors I made and how I got duped into buying something next to worthless ?

Today's lesson reminds us to be less trusting of some dealers and not simply take everything they say as honest fact Make sure you get good pictures before you buy and then carefully inspect your purchase when it arrives, not 14 years later when you are taking high-res photos of your collection! Caveat emptor.

This is the so-called 'Dollar' variety of the US victory medal:

 

....except it isn't. It's a normal US victory with the suspension cut off and polished down ? Luckily I didn't pay too much for it so now it's just a worthless curio to refer back to and warn me. Happy purchasing all!

Rob

[Bilco]

Hi Rob,

There is a post about half-way down on page 23 of this thread showing a So-Called Dollar version of the US Victory medal. It's made of copper, so is a different colour to the issue planchet.

Bill

[sumserbrown]

49 minutes ago, Bilco said:

Hi Rob,

There is a post about half-way down on page 23 of this thread showing a So-Called Dollar version of the US Victory medal. It's made of copper, so is a different colour to the issue planchet.

Bill

Thanks Bill. It's the sort of information I should have read up before I bought it 14 years ago! Hopefully everyone is a bit more careful these days as there is so  much more information out there on the internet and much better photos to compare to.

best wishes

Rob

[oliver860]

On 14.09.2020 at 21:16, sumserbrown said:

На обратной стороне хлопков нет штампа «MADE IN FRANCE», но вы можете быть правы в том, что думаете. Для меня это было бы нормально, если бы это было правдой, по крайней мере, так вы можете утверждать, что это старые застежки, разработанные для ветеранов и заполняющие пробел на рынке, пока выпускались настоящие медали. Больше всего меня беспокоит, если бы это были откровенные подделки, произведенные совсем недавно с конкретной целью обмануть коллекционеров. Есть ли какие-либо доказательства того, что это застежки 1920-х или 1930-х годов?

Спасибо

Роб

Привет!

«MADE IN FRANCE» появилось с 1931 года!

[azyeoman]

I understand there are some US WWI Victory Medals that are numbered. Does anyone have photos showing the numbers? 
Thank you in advance. 

[jimn]

I think General Pershing got #1 and a medal with all the clasps. US collectors will know better than me but I believe the theory is the first 100 were numbered  but no roll is known and I have only read about  one other numbered to a  Brigadier General in a JOMSA article

Neat thread

Jim