American (US) Victory Medals

[johnnymac]

Rob I own three different "Offensive Sector" clasps. The one you just listed and these two.

Clasps "OFFENSIVE SECTOR" has been done by every one of the 5 per 1960's sellers of "Fantasy" clasps. To me the word fantasy is just nicer work then the fake and but many prefer that word, fantasy.

Regards to all, Jim

[johnnymac]

Rob, as to the Medal, yes many of these modern medals, minus the clasp are to be found on the internet for sale today. Is yours the 35mm or 36mm, as both 1 and 2 type suspensions can also be found for sale.

Here is an example of the type 2.

[RobW]

Is yours the 35mm or 36mm, as both 1 and 2 type suspensions can also be found for sale.

Jim,

The medal is 36mm in diameter.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Rob I do have some of type 2 that are original and are 3mm. Also I was wondering did you know there was a 35mm out there?

Being in the U.S. and collecting as long as I have, has been a plus for me, The UK is where i fall to the back of the pack as far as information, and it being available for study.

Jim

[lambert]

Hi All

I found it interesting this is unusual claps USN .. but I believe that is a fantasy.

WWI USN Interallied Victory Medal Bar "DEFENSIVE SECTOR"

Regards

Lambert

[johnnymac]

That clasp is a Gleim FI, listed in Alexander Laslo's book 2nd ed. It comes in all 19 of the Navy Duty clasps, and all 14 the Army battles and all 5 Service clasps. It hit the market in the USA in the mid 60's. It is listed as a F for Fake by Gleim himself.

Jim

Edited September 8, 2012 by johnnymac

[lambert]

Thank Bill

I agree with everything!

:beer:

Edited September 8, 2012 by lambert

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I've come across a couple of guides to US Army and Navy clasps for the WW1 vic on eBay, and wondered how accurate they are - maybe a member of GMIC wrote them?

http://reviews.ebay.com/Army-WWI-Victory-Medal-Clasps?ugid=10000000005867427

http://reviews.ebay.com/Navy-Marine-Corps-WWI-Victory-Medal-Clasps?ugid=10000000005819214

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Gents,

I've come across a couple of guides to US Army and Navy clasps for the WW1 vic on eBay, and wondered how accurate they are - maybe a member of GMIC wrote them?

http://reviews.ebay....000000005867427

http://reviews.ebay....000000005819214

Bill

Hello Bill,

I have seen these lists before and they have been listed on ebay for a while. While the author is unknown it does indicate in the listing that the information was compiled from a number of sources.

It is always handy to have such a list but the references are not indicated so it is anyone's guess how current the information is.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Both lists are very good sources. If you are looking for particular units entitlements use these two list as a starting point. But then take it one step further, do your own research by looking up their history either on the units websites or by unit history books. I would say the units listed are good with a +/- of maybe one or two of the units I checked it out. I checked it about two years ago. (These two list you posted were done on 9/9/12 and 9/9/15).

[Bilco]

Hi Rob, Jim - many thanks for your comments. It's amazing what's around on the web these days!

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Rob, Jim - many thanks for your comments. It's amazing what's around on the web these days!

Bill

Hello Bill,

The information being present on the internet is one thing; verifying its accuracy with other information from different sources is half the fun. The fact that a lot of the parent and original documentation is close to 100 years old is also problematic.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 30, 2012 by RobW

[Herman]

Johnnymac, RobW, bilco, lambert and others,

Thanks for your input. Great reading.

Hopefuly it all will lead to a book on US VMs.

Regards

Herman

[johnnymac]

To all,

I have been asked about the Army's Silver Citation Star and what a true Citation star would look like. That is a very easy question to answer. The Government awards board, in 1932, wanted to keep the lineage. So, they had that same Citation Silver Star incorporated into the new medal. The designer, Rudolf Freund of Bailey, Banks and Biddle, refined it in shape. He placed the citation star in the center of the Silver Star. You will find most of these Citation Silver Stars on the Victory medals. Also the 3/16 bronze stars for the service ribbon are the same size & shape.

Jim

Edited October 10, 2012 by johnnymac

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

While hacking my way through the Internet jungle I came across a web site for The Numismatic Bibliomania Society, called the E-sylum. I did a search on the contents of their archive for WW1 Victory medals, and turned up some correspondence from 2005, concerning a strange Victory medal find.

The query about this find is here http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v08n39a11.html

under the heading FRASER VICTORY MEDAL TRIAL FOUND?

The response is here http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v08n41a16.html

under the heading FRASER VICTORY MEDAL NOT A DIE TRIAL

Might be of interest?

Bill

Edited October 14, 2012 by Bilco

[johnnymac]

Bill,

Thanks for posting both articles are interest read. There is lot more to this story but for now I will have to leave it unread.

Jim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

At the end of the second extract linked in post #133 Wayne Homren talks about telling the story of how Weil and the Medallic Art Company got paid for their work on the WW1 Vic at "a later time". I can't find anything else about it on the E-sylum, but I think the story is here

http://medalblog.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/the-institute-of-heraldry-%E2%80%A8loves-medallic-art-company/

on the blog by D Wayne Johnson.

Bill

Edited October 15, 2012 by Bilco

[johnnymac]

To all, I also posted this on the U.S. Militaria Forum. This is a great place to get info on just U.S. medals, uniforms, guns etc.

June 7, 1919, France, A.E.F., Gen. Pershing. General Headquarters - General Pershing sends a cablegram to the War Department . Many of his officers and commanders had pleaded their case of how each of them fought and occupied sectors in different engagements during this horrific war. General Pershing understood the needs of each of his unit commanders.

He wrote the War Department recognizing those individuals and organizations, many of which suffered heavy casualties. Who would be deprived to the right to wear a battle clasp if they were only awarded to personnel engaged in one of the 13 named major operations.

Secretary of War, Baker replies: "The following premise that I have adopted is that the entire war was in reality a continuous battle. The effect of this premise is that all soldiers occupying a sector, whether active or quiet, is entitled as a participation in battle under Par. 244". With this, General Pershing is granted his request and the "Defensive Sector" clasp was added as the 14th battle clasps.

It is necessary to understand the importance of the Defensive Sector battle clasp. The word "battle" is not my word; it was attached to the Defensive Sector battle clasp by General Pershing and the War Department. This clasp stood for all the night patrols in no-man's land, the daily artillery and machine gun fire, not to mention the very active enemy snipers or the balloonist who were under fire from both the ground and air. We must also not forget the men who ran the daily gun fire to truck supplies and ammo to the front or those who also ran the gun fire to get food to the troops in the trenches. Hollywood has made it all look so easy but there was no crease fire as seen in the movies as men dashed out to help a fallen comrade. To all these unknown and forgotten heroes, this battle clasp makes a statement to the world. "I was there in the thick of it all".

Edited November 4, 2012 by johnnymac

[lambert]

Hi Jim, very good!

Were thinking ... the defensive Sector clasp, also cannot be found in medals with clasp RUSSIA , ITALIA ?

lambert

[johnnymac]

Hi Lambert,

You are correct about the RUSSIA, ITALY, FRANCE, SIBERIA and ENGLAND, because these clasp are strictly for service in that country. The other 14 named clasps are Army clasps and which was awarded for "Battle or combat". They have battle stars at each end of the clasp, where as the 5 service chaps does not have any stars at each end.

[Jaybo]

Gentlemen

Were there any hard and fast rules about what bars Airmen received? I'm trying to figure out what bars Major John Huffer would be entitled to on the US Victory Medal.He was the CO of the 94th and later 93rd Pursuiy Squadrons. Also, since he initially flew with the French (Lafayette Flying Corps), would he have recieved the French Victory Medal as well? Thanks!

[johnnymac]

The 94th was entitled to these, Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps.

The 93rd was entitled to these, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne and Defensive Sector clasps.

This is what each of these two Units would have entitled to up to 1922. As to what each man received I am not sure.

Yet, In 1922 there were slight changes made to a few of the different units clasp count. But by then 97% of the medals had already been issued so I fell it did not factor in what your man received and would have been more for historical count.

Jim

[Jaybo]

Thanks Jim. The poster I have involving Major Huffer seems to indicate that he received a US Victory Medal with the Defensive Sector clasp alone. But it is not definitive. Since he fought with the French previously, would he be entitled to a French Victory Medal as well? Thanks.

Jay

[johnnymac]

The French Victory medal is a firm yes, as I have seen others in the same situation receive this medal plus other French medals.

As far as just receiving the Defensive Sector clasp, it too is also a possibility . Why because it would depend at what point he became part of the 94th. He then might have when to the 93rd after the war or during the Occupation of period.

Try is site http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/

[lambert]

Don't know for sure, But I think not

For that to happen he would have this in the French Army?

Lambert