Three medal bar (EK2, HK, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice)

[Claudius]

Here is a little medal bar I fancied. It is not exactly in my area of collecting but I liked its very simplicy and what it said about the owner.

First off, he served in the German armed forces during the war as a combatant. That earned him the Hindenburg Cross with swords and the gallantry award in the form of the Iron Cross 2nd Class on a combatant’s ribbon.

The third medal is the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice award or cross. Translated "For Church and Pope” It is a Roman Catholic award established by Pope Leo XIII on July 17, 1888 to commorate his golden jubilee (of taking sacred orders) and was awarded to men or women that aided and promoted his jubilee. It was made a permanent distinction in October 1898 and is used today to reward clergy and lay persons for outstanding service to the Pope or the Catholic Church.

This example is a gold grade, three piece construction with some wear. The ribbon has some staining and there is some corrosion on the clasp on the back.

The recipient of this cross was awarded the cross for outstanding service before or after (or during?!) the war. He was likely a Catholic and an NCO or lower rank that hadn't been in service much before the war and didn't attract any other official attention during the war.

[Claudius]

In addition to being attached at the top, there are threads holding the EK2's arm and the HK's swords. The Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice cross is free to move.

[Claudius]

reverse...

[Claudius]

When I turned the medal bar over to the back side...there was no label but, Hello Sailor!

The dark blue felt is (usually) indicative of naval personnel.

This man was in the naval armed forces, the Kaiserliche Marine.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Claudius

[Douglas Jr.]

Very nice indeed.

Foreign awards in a German bar are always something that I like to see, but this one is really different.

Congratulations and thanks for sharing!

Douglas

[Paul R]

I have never seen such a medal. Is there any idea on the number awarded?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Really strange to see it on a 1930s bar!!

[Odulf]

The Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (in gold) is a rather common Papal award for lays, for long service towards the RC parish. Though the medal knew 3 classes (gold, silver, bronze) from 1910 onward only one class remains (gold). The design remained the same until Pope Paul VI altered the medal and it's ribbon drasticly. 100.000s have been issued to Roman Catholics all over the world.

[Chris Boonzaier]

The Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (in gold) is a rather common Papal award for lays, for long service towards the RC parish. Though the medal knew 3 classes (gold, silver, bronze) from 1910 onward only one class remains (gold). The design remained the same until Pope Paul VI altered the medal and it's ribbon drasticly. 100.000s have been issued to Roman Catholics all over the world.

But was it allowed on a 3rd Reich era bar?

[Odulf]

"But was it allowed on a 3rd Reich era bar?"

Why not? The Vatican State was/is an official nation, with an officially international recognised Head of State (the Pope), passports, ambassadors etc. It never was a hostile state for Germany, so there was no reason why the official orders and decorations of this state should not be worn by German national subjects.

[Claudius]

Really strange to see it on a 1930s bar!!

EXACTLY...and that appealed to me.

[Claudius]

The Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice (in gold) is a rather common Papal award for lays, for long service towards the RC parish. Though the medal knew 3 classes (gold, silver, bronze) from 1910 onward only one class remains (gold). The design remained the same until Pope Paul VI altered the medal and it's ribbon drasticly. 100.000s have been issued to Roman Catholics all over the world.

Hallo Odulf;

I do not doubt your information. For my own education I would like to know where you learned this information.

While this individual would be hard to trace, I would like to understand how many there are to consider. Is there an available list of names or numbers issued by year and nationality?

out of 100,000s issued...

xxx,xxx were issued to Germans

xx,xxx were issued to Germans who were combantants in the Armed Forces

x,xxx were issued to Germans in the Imperial Navy

x,xxx were issued to Germans in the Imperial Navy and did not earn a long service award or other notable service awards.

x,xxx were issued to Germans in the Imperial Navy,did not earn a long service award or other notable service awards and were alive in 1930's Germany

[Odulf]

For years I have been gathering information about this medal and the other Papal medal for zeal, the Benemerenti Medal, to write an article/booklet about these. Most information to be found on the internet is incomplete and not always correct.

I made a small error in my first reaction, Pope Pius X decreed in 1908 that henceforward only the medal in one class (in gold) should be issued; thus all silver and bronze issues date from before 1908. I have many PeP Medals in gold or gilded, and some in silver or silvered, but I have never seen one in bronze. The medal is identical for all periods between 1888 and about 1968, the only way to define the period is examining the papal crest on the box of issue.

The parish priest would indicate a member of his congregation (over 45 years of age) with a long history of (today) at least 20 years unbroken volunteer service (unpaid) towards the parish (playing the organ, leading the choir, collecting funds for those in need, etc). Through the bisshop who adds his advice, the request for award would be submitted to the Papal Nuntius (ambassador) in the country. The Nuntius would further the proposal to Rome, to the State Secretary, where in most cases the advice of the bisshop will be followed. The State Secretary (today) has limited the number of PePs to be issued to each diocese.

I cannot answer your questions about the quota. For years I have tried to examine the quota of the PeP and the BM Medals as they have been issued in the 19th and 20th century, but this information is not available (to me). The diocesal archives (obviously) have kept no records (or if they did the records are not open for research).

In most nations, the PeP was to be considered a foreign decoration. Military personnel should request, from the proper authorities, permission to wear such an award on the uniform; perhaps records have been kept of these requests. But in fact over 95% of these medals were issued to (elderly) civilians, who did not bother to ask for permission.

I see no evidence to support your assumption that this group of medals was worn by a Navy man - at least not an active serving member of the forces - perhaps they were made up by a tailor who did much work for the Navy. I think it is likely that the group belonged to a veteran, who wore his medals on (for instance) the Kyffhäuser jacket or so.

[Claudius]

For years I have been gathering information about this medal and the other Papal medal for zeal, the Benemerenti Medal, to write an article/booklet about these. Most information to be found on the internet is incomplete and not always correct.

I made a small error in my first reaction, Pope Pius X decreed in 1908 that henceforward only the medal in one class (in gold) should be issued; thus all silver and bronze issues date from before 1908. I have many PeP Medals in gold or gilded, and some in silver or silvered, but I have never seen one in bronze. The medal is identical for all periods between 1888 and about 1968, the only way to define the period is examining the papal crest on the box of issue.

The parish priest would indicate a member of his congregation (over 45 years of age) with a long history of (today) at least 20 years unbroken volunteer service (unpaid) towards the parish (playing the organ, leading the choir, collecting funds for those in need, etc). Through the bisshop who adds his advice, the request for award would be submitted to the Papal Nuntius (ambassador) in the country. The Nuntius would further the proposal to Rome, to the State Secretary, where in most cases the advice of the bisshop will be followed. The State Secretary (today) has limited the number of PePs to be issued to each diocese.

I cannot answer your questions about the quota. For years I have tried to examine the quota of the PeP and the BM Medals as they have been issued in the 19th and 20th century, but this information is not available (to me). The diocesal archives (obviously) have kept no records (or if they did the records are not open for research).

In most nations, the PeP was to be considered a foreign decoration. Military personnel should request, from the proper authorities, permission to wear such an award on the uniform; perhaps records have been kept of these requests. But in fact over 95% of these medals were issued to (elderly) civilians, who did not bother to ask for permission.

I see no evidence to support your assumption that this group of medals was worn by a Navy man - at least not an active serving member of the forces - perhaps they were made up by a tailor who did much work for the Navy. I think it is likely that the group belonged to a veteran, who wore his medals on (for instance) the Kyffhäuser jacket or so.

Thank you Odulf! You are a wealth for information.

I would like to see your collection of PePs. I think it would make an interesting thread.

It is unfortunate that it is unknown the number of PePs issued. It would provide some perspective to the award.

The evidence for this medal bar belonging to a Navy man is "circumstantial". Pundits have concurred that the dark blue felt backing is indicative of a naval personnel; however I understand your argument as well.

A tailor, who constructs mainly navy medals bars, may not have other felt in stock. In addition, a Kyffhäuser tunic is a dark blue and a dark blue felt backing would be a better match.

Can anyone who owns a lot of medal bars add to this topic of felt backing color on naval medal bars and non-naval medal bars?

[Odulf]

Some medal boxes for the PEeP from the period 1888-1968.

From left to right: Pius X (1903-1914), Pius XI (1922-1939), Pius XII (1939-1948), Johannes XXIII (1958-1963), Sede Vacante (in between two popes).

[Odulf]

Two PEeP Medals in silver from the reign of Pope Pius X (issued before 1909)

[Claudius]

Two PEeP Medals in silver from the reign of Pope Pius X (issued before 1909)

Palmarium!

[Claudius]

For years I have been gathering information about this medal and the other Papal medal for zeal, the Benemerenti Medal, to write an article/booklet about these. Most information to be found on the internet is incomplete and not always correct.

I made a small error in my first reaction, Pope Pius X decreed in 1908 that henceforward only the medal in one class (in gold) should be issued; thus all silver and bronze issues date from before 1908. I have many PeP Medals in gold or gilded, and some in silver or silvered, but I have never seen one in bronze. The medal is identical for all periods between 1888 and about 1968, the only way to define the period is examining the papal crest on the box of issue.

The parish priest would indicate a member of his congregation (over 45 years of age) with a long history of (today) at least 20 years unbroken volunteer service (unpaid) towards the parish (playing the organ, leading the choir, collecting funds for those in need, etc). Through the bisshop who adds his advice, the request for award would be submitted to the Papal Nuntius (ambassador) in the country. The Nuntius would further the proposal to Rome, to the State Secretary, where in most cases the advice of the bisshop will be followed. The State Secretary (today) has limited the number of PePs to be issued to each diocese.

I cannot answer your questions about the quota. For years I have tried to examine the quota of the PeP and the BM Medals as they have been issued in the 19th and 20th century, but this information is not available (to me). The diocesal archives (obviously) have kept no records (or if they did the records are not open for research).

In most nations, the PeP was to be considered a foreign decoration. Military personnel should request, from the proper authorities, permission to wear such an award on the uniform; perhaps records have been kept of these requests. But in fact over 95% of these medals were issued to (elderly) civilians, who did not bother to ask for permission.

I see no evidence to support your assumption that this group of medals was worn by a Navy man - at least not an active serving member of the forces - perhaps they were made up by a tailor who did much work for the Navy. I think it is likely that the group belonged to a veteran, who wore his medals on (for instance) the Kyffhäuser jacket or so.

Thank you Odulf! You are a wealth for information.

I would like to see your collection of PePs. I think it would make an interesting thread.

It is unfortunate that it is unknown the number of PePs issued. It would provide some perspective to the award.

The evidence for this medal bar belonging to a Navy man is "circumstantial". Pundits have concurred that the dark blue felt backing is indicative of a naval personnel; however I understand your argument as well.

A tailor, who constructs mainly navy medals bars, may not have other felt in stock. In addition, a Kyffhäuser tunic is a dark blue and a dark blue felt backing would be a better match.

Can anyone who owns a lot of medal bars add to this topic of felt backing color on naval medal bars and non-naval medal bars?

A small search and I found this old thread. So, a Black or Dark Blue felt backing could likely be navy OR civilian.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/24330-backing-material-on-medal-bars/page__hl__%2Bmedal+%2Bbar+%2Bbacking__fromsearch__1

[Mike Dwyer]

Here's a photo of the current version of the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice. It comes in a box with a small metal and enamel lapel pin. I had the pleasure of attending a speical Mass and dinner in Jacksonville, Florida on June 11 where the wife of a close friend and three others received the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal and two men and a woman were made knights and dame of the Order of St. Sylvester.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mike Dwyer

[Detlev]

Some medal boxes for the PEeP from the period 1888-1968.

From left to right: Pius X (1903-1914), Pius XI (1922-1939), Pius XII (1939-1948), Johannes XXIII (1958-1963), Sede Vacante (in between two popes).

hello,

can you please date this one?

thanks,

Detlev

[Ulsterman]

I believe the awards of this and other awards were usually noted in the Papal register-published weekly since @ 1600 or so? I have seen awards lists in my local Bishops' palace.

[Odulf]

hello,

can you please date this one?

thanks,

Detlev

Hi Detlev,

This medal and box were issued during the reign of Pius XI.

PEeP Crosses that were issued during the reign of a Pope had the crest of that pope on the lid of the box, crosses issued during the Sede Vacante generaly carried the badge with two crossed keys.

[speedytop]

This must be the oldest one, Leo XIII.

A. CERBARA, ROMA

VIA CONDOTTI, 23,P.P.

Complete with cross and minature.

Uwe

[Odulf]

Indeed Uwe, issued under the reign of Leo XII but, judging from the shape of the box, a late issue (can you please show us the interior?) as the earlier boxes to my knowledge had only two "top" corners and a rounded "bottom" (where the lid closes).

[speedytop]

Here it is, there is a round notch:

Uwe