Another Bizarre Medal Bar to Ponder

[Stogieman]

This one has even me puzzled........ what's wrong with this picture? it's all you get for now!

[Dave Danner]

It would appear to be an MVK2, by the color, unless the gilding/bronzing is all gone. Can't tell if the Saxe-Meiningen is on the right ribbon based on that picture.

I have a Bavarian/Saxe-Meiningen bar, so the combo of those two states, while odd, is not unprecedented.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Dave Danner

[Guest Rick Research]

I agree-- it looks like the Max Joseph/Bravery Medal ribbon to my weary eyes, not the Meiningen colors.

And what is WITH that nasty, horridly SHINY plated-like-the-IX-medal MVK2X? Eeeewwwww.

[Stogieman]

For someone with poor eyesite, they're working pretty good tonight. Here's the front. Now the thing that really, really bugged me about this bar is the construction/materials and "feel/look" would have me believing the bar to be right. Only one problem. NO Bavarian would put the MJ behind the first two. Never going to happen. Nope, don't think that way.............. it isn't going to happen.......... But WHY is it like this??

[Dave Danner]

Assume the MVK is incorrect. Where would a Bavarian Bravery Medal rank with an MVO and an EK for a cadet-turned-officer?

It still seems wrong. No matter how you slice it, Bavarian to Prussian to Bavarian seems off.

[David Gregory]

For someone with poor eyesite, they're working pretty good tonight. Here's the front. Now the thing that really, really bugged me about this bar is the construction/materials and "feel/look" would have me believing the bar to be right. Only one problem. NO Bavarian would put the MJ behind the first two. Never going to happen. Nope, don't think that way.............. it isn't going to happen.......... But WHY is it like this??

If it was made that way around 80 years ago, an ignorant or desparate tailor might have had no Meiningen ribbon when he assembled the bar.

[Schießplatzmeister]

Assume the MVK is incorrect. Where would a Bavarian Bravery Medal rank with an MVO and an EK for a cadet-turned-officer?

It still seems wrong. No matter how you slice it, Bavarian to Prussian to Bavarian seems off.

Hello folks:

Yes, this bar seems VERY wrong. I don't believe that a Bavarian would wear his bravery medal behind his MVOVKIIm/schw., and ESPECIALLY not behind an EKII. It makes no sense anyway one looks at it, yet it does look like an older mounting in typical Bavarian fashion. Also, the Saxe-Meiningen medal should not appear with the Bavarian items (I can't remember ever seeing this). Strange (???).

Schie?platzmeister

[landsknechte]

Not entirely sure if this is even possible, but perhaps the MMJO ribbon was a sub for a lower peacetime grade of the MVK on the war merit ("Beatmter") ribbon - with the active wartime decorations first.

--Chris

[JensF.]

The "Milit?r-Sanit?tsorden" had the same ribbon but I think nobody would place it after an EK2 too.

[Stogieman]

Jens! I forgot about that one and it's an excellent point! I think there actually IS a possibility that it would be mounted behind an EK2 since the MVO/K and EK2 were combattant decorations and the Sanit?ts Kreuz was considered a "Civil" Order!! oooooooooo a possibility here. Which would also explain the bizarre presence of the Saxon-Meiningen Medal.

When you open the door to the fact the this bar could be missing an MVO and a Sanit?ts-Order it looks very different.

Now, there's the still the problem that The Sanit?ts Order is actually the Milit?r-Sanit?ts-Orden. AND the fact that it was awarded so infrequently...... who really knows how it was treated. This is another perfect example of supply and demand. I have seen exactly TWO RK of this order in 12 years. One languished on Weitze's site forever, I cannot even remember where the second one was but again, it sat there forever. In both instances the price was HUGE. Given how exceptionally rare (and quite beautiful) this Order is, I never understood why collectors seemed to overlook it. Or perhaps the prices were just too much, even for a rarity like this.

Thanks Jen, I had not remembered that little tidbit.

[Dave Danner]

The Sanit?ts Kreuz makes sense, but assuming it was a civil award, allowing it to be mounted after the EK, wouldn't it also come after a military long service medal?

...Also, the Saxe-Meiningen medal should not appear with the Bavarian items (I can't remember ever seeing this). Strange (???).

...

As noted previously, I have seen a number of Bavarian/Saxe-Meiningen groups without obvious explanation.

For example:

Note that the ribbon bar tells us that this Bavarian officer received both a Prussian and a Saxe-Meiningen award in World War One before receiving his Bavarian award.

[Guest Rick Research]

Me too. There is absolutely nothing from the wartime Personal Nachrichten listed Meiningen awards to Bavarians that "explains" why anybody got one.

[attachmentid=26113]

Since NO Military Medical Medals were bestowed in WW1, that could only be the ORDER... and that would NOT be given to an NCO.

That is simply the wrong ribbon for whatever was meant to be in 3rd place, and an error/"make do" that I cannot imagine ANY Bavarian doing. The odd tattering on the silky backing suggests to my justifiably paranoid eyes THESE days that little monkey fingers pulled something out and stuck that back in.

[JensF.]

There is still the possibility that this guy began the war as NCO (Feldhilfsarzt for example) and got the MVK 2. Later as officer he became the MilSanOrder. Btw. these are the award numbers for the MSO:

Milit?r-Sanit?tsorden 1. Klasse (neck ribbon): 11

Milit?r-Sanit?tsorden 2. Klasse (breast ribbon): 163

If you read some stories how someone got these orders you wonder even more, that nobody recognizes them. However the price is, this time, nearly ok for such an ultrare imperial decoration.

Here is an example from a Regimentsgeschichte. A doctor who got BOTH classes of that rare order:

Stabsarzt Dr. Hermann Ott, K?niglich-bayerisches 12. Infanterieregiment:

Stabs- und Battaillonsarzt des III. Btl. KB 12 IR "Prinz Arnulf". Born 9. august 1880.

Milit?r-Sanit?tsorden 2. Klasse:

Stabsarzt (Captain) Ott treated the wounded in the very first frontline after the capture of a french trench on oct. 30. and 31. 1915 northeast Neuville. Instead of staying in the save medical-dugout Dr. Ott asked the commander of the regiment for permission to treat the wounded in the first line to give them medical care as fast as possible. He treated and rescued wounded soldiers during heavy artillery- and trench-mortar fire; especially he cared for a heavily wounded soldier during a heavy handgrenade-battle in an trench-outpost. Dr. Ott showed exceptional gallantry and intrepidity and fulfilled his service above and beyond the call of duty.

Milit?r-Sanit?tsorden 1. Klasse:

During the Battle of Verdun Dr. Ott moved his medical-post voluntarily from the Chambrettes Ferme to the northern part of the Chaffour forest on may 25. 1916 to be closer to the fighting troops. There he treated, together with his Assitenzarzt Dr. Mau, hundreds of wounded soldiers for seven days and seven nights under the open sky and during heavy artillery fire without any cover. On june 2. 1916 Dr. Ott evacuated voluntarily the wounded out of an infantry-bunker nearby. He moved as one of the first of the 9. company through the heavy "Sperrfeuer" (artillery fire barrage?) and didn't left the bunker before the last wounded was evacuated.

This is Dr. Ott with both medals. The 1. class around his neck and the 2. class as ribbon in the buttonhole.

Edited February 5, 2006 by JensF.

[Stogieman]

Well, I can accept that the bar has a slim possibility of being correct. The problem becomes that the chances of finding an RK to replace the Sax-Meiningen piece is pretty slim.

I looked over the photos again carefully. I don't think a ribbon was removed/replaced. So it appears to me anyway that the bar is possibly correct.

[saschaw]

Yes, this bar seems VERY wrong. I don't believe that a Bavarian would wear his bravery medal behind his MVOVKIIm/schw., and ESPECIALLY not behind an EKII.

Do you really believe this? Well, I can unterstand you believed this so far, but what's about this guy?

He wears his MVK2KrX in front of the EKII, as far as good. But behind the EKII, he has his "Silberne Milit?rverdienstmedaille" !!!

[Mike Huxley]

Do you really believe this? Well, I can unterstand you believed this so far, but what's about this guy?

He wears his MVK2KrX in front of the EKII, as far as good. But behind the EKII, he has his "Silberne Milit?rverdienstmedaille" !!!

Bloody hell saschaw, fantastic picture that proves the point. This certainly rocks the boat for presidence

[Schießplatzmeister]

Wow Saschaw!:

I never would have believed it until now!

I guess that this just proves again that sometimes pieces/groups that don't meet an established "norm" are not necessarily counterfeit or altered. Recipients didn't always follow precident and sometimes made-up their own mounted groups in whatever fashion they pleased (or could afford!).

Simply amazing!

Do you know who the recipient of the TKM in the photo is? I have the "Goldenes Ehrenbuch", send me a PM if you have a name.

Now a believer!

"SPM"

[Steve K.]

That is a very interesting picture! I never would have imagined it true.......

[saschaw]

I'm happy I made you believers ...

Also in imperial stuff, NOTHING seems to be impossilbe. I have no idea who this might be, unfortunallity.

I bought it once on Ebay.de as I just wanted to know which medal he is wearing in third place, being surprisded it is a SMVM. But, also if we cannot see: this is a "Frackspange", although it seems to be a normal bar. SO he wears the BMVK2KrX behind his EK II, rather uncommon nevertheless.

BTW, his wife is wearing an nice K?nig Ludwig Cross ..

Edited August 21, 2006 by saschaw

[Deruelle]

Nice picture Sashaw . You are right, nothing is impossible. A great find.

Christophe

[Stogieman]

OK, I'll be dipped. Very impressive photo!

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Mystery solved - nice job!

In the process, several related questions were both raised and answered; and, I might add, only in the environment of this forum could so much be done so well in such a short period of time.

I was particularly interested in the side discussion regarding the Militar Sanit?tsorden and in view of it?s rarity thought that some members might not be too sure as to what it looks like, so for their benefit, see below.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Wild Card]

Militar Sanit?tsorden 2nd class.

[Wild Card]

Awaed document to the Militar Sanit?tsorden.

[Stogieman]

Well, that makes exactly three or four I've seen a photo of! First document! Thanks!