Solomon Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) Hello again,something quite rare just arrived today Honor cross 4th class 2nd divison Lippe-Detmold for non-combatantsThis cross was awarded from 1913-1918. The letter "L" at the back stands for "F?rst Leopold IV zur Lippe".The cross is made of silver. Around the rose in the center (little damaged) you can read "Fuer Treue und Verdienst" (...for loyality and honor...)The ribbon is an original one (gold-red-gold).There were about 1450 awards without swords in all classes (1st - 4th). Unfortunately i don?t know the numbers of each class.If anybody has a document that fits to it -feel free to show it !I hope you like this cross too GreetingsSolomon Edited February 9, 2006 by Solomon
David Gregory Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Solomon,That is another very nice cross. I don't have any documents for this award, but you might not have seen a portrait of an officer based in Minden that I posted in early November of last year. It is not the same grade of the cross, but still a nice image of one in wear.David
HeikoGrusdat Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 A wonderful cross with an impressive artwork in the center medaillon - could you please send a high quality close up scan of the enameled center? Thanks in advanceHeiko
Solomon Posted February 9, 2006 Author Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) Solomon,That is another very nice cross. I don't have any documents for this award, but you might not have seen a portrait of an officer based in Minden that I posted in early November of last year. It is not the same grade of the cross, but still a nice image of one in wear.DavidI think,the cross is the same grade but it isn?t the same principal It?s the honor cross 4th class Schaumburg-Lippe.The principals Lippe-Detmold and Schaumburg-Lippe were divided in 1897...GreetingsSolomon Edited February 9, 2006 by Solomon
Solomon Posted February 9, 2006 Author Posted February 9, 2006 Hello Heiko,here is a better scan (1200dpi) of the center.I?m not sure but the golden plate under the rose might be really gold.If you need still a better scan, please send me a PM...it?s no problem!Greetings Solomon
Guest Rick Research Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Well, I can tell you that between 12 March 1914 (number 81 on the roll) and 12 November 1918 (no awards on the roll after that date) there were were 71 of this grade: and 1 of those was during the war to an officer so his "no swords" entry may be an error (70?). Likewise, there were 2 awards "m X" to civilians which may be errors (72/73). Assuming that there was no reason whatsover for any awards with swords BEFORE 12 March 1914, that means the previous 80 IVb grade had no swords =80 + 71, or 80 + 70, or 80 + 73 = (tadaaaaaaaah)151(150-153) total awarded.My late Imperial mentor George Seymour xeroxed ALL the Lippe-Detmold award rolls, but all I have are the pages showing THIS grade, covering the war.But as I mentioned on another of your Lippe threads, ALL the Lippe award rolls exist, are at the state archive... and just need to be xeroxed and hopefully typed up and shared like Erhard Roth's volumes published by Michael Autengruber.The Lippe rolls are VERY neat, and very detailed:the recipients have full names, date and place of birth, job title or unit and rank, city where they lived, and the date of the award (including promotions to higher grades of the order with this class returned) by a running numbered list.The first war award "m.Schw." was #96, made on 31 August 1914.Here is an example of the Roll. I know this ribbon bar belonged to Entry Line 100 because the military suspects were easily reduced to a handful who were Wehrmacht (E) officers and... this ribbon bar was split off from the pre-WW2 medal bar, so I know the 3rd ribbon was an LH4bX and the final one a Volkspflege Cross.[attachmentid=26838]Running LH4b entry #: 100Name: Nuyken, HansRank/Position: Leutnant im Inf. Regt. 55 sp?ter im res. Inf. Regt. No. 255Residence: DetmoldPlace and date of birth: Biebrich am Rhein 8.6.1890Date of award: 22. Septbr. 1914War Badge (no notation if not): m. Schw.Date of return of decoration (promotions in grade or recipients' deaths):Remarks: (not scanned)Lippe-Detmold kept FANTASTIC rolls!!!!
HeikoGrusdat Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 as always fantastic work by Mr.Superresearch!!!! And a wonderful order, I love to look at these but I think on all my medal bars there is not only one of these beautiful Lippe-orders.... I have to change this thanks for the better picHeiko
Stogieman Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 And... it will have a nice little matching buttonier as soon as it flys back and forthg over "The Pond"!!
Solomon Posted February 10, 2006 Author Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) Thank you for your fantastic and detailed work I?m wondering that the number is so small...i thought it was much larger...(perhaps about 800...).The archive in Detmold is not far away from here (about 20 km)...when i?ll have more time (after my wedding ) , i?ll visit it and look what there also can be found out....GreetingsSolomon Edited February 10, 2006 by Solomon
Guest Rick Research Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Congratulations! BUT!!! Priorities, priorities!!! BEFORE you get married. Afterwards you will have LESS time. You'll find out!
Ramblinfarms Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Amen to that Brother! Wives have a way of impacting your collecting habits. "What do you mean we don't have money for groceries? I don't care if you ate mac and cheese and tuna in college for a month so you could buy some stupid Red Chicken Medal with swords on it. The children need milk and real food."
JensF. Posted February 11, 2006 Posted February 11, 2006 So this would be the same cross (with swords)?
Claudio Posted February 11, 2006 Posted February 11, 2006 Just wanted to add my contribution to this interesting thread... here are mine Honor crosses:Ciao,Claudio
Guest Rick Research Posted February 11, 2006 Posted February 11, 2006 Jens: I'm not sure about the swords indicating grades, because vH&S don't cover these classes. The swords on mine are gold (not that that proves anything), but I know that it was a 4bX because the matching medal bar without KVK2X was sold by another American dealer.I cannot say how many of the WW1 X recipients had the Detmold/Hamburg combination, because the reservists are "invisible." My officer was identifiable because of his Wehrmacht awards. There was at least ONE other known officer with the same 4 ribbons, but with a pre-Hindenburg cross bar like this, no way to tell which one he was. You can PM me-- let's just say I'm not going to "share" the mit Schwerter numbers as long as there is any chance that someday I might FIND that medal bar. My guy may have ended up in the Widows & Orphans Pension Section of the OKH, but that's no reason to hand dealers information to raise their prices, eh?
Solomon Posted March 12, 2006 Author Posted March 12, 2006 (edited) Now the set is almost complete, exept the name and the document...and of course the medal bar (Again thank you, stogieman!)This fitting lapel button just arrvied (it belongs to this cross, but it was sold seperate on ebay):-cross for war-aid Prussia-Honor cross 4th class (2.div.) without swords Lippe-Detmold-war honor medal (ribbon for non-combatants) lippe-Detmold-Long service medal Prussia-General honor cross (!) Prussia-Red cross medal PrussiaGreetingsSolomon Edited March 12, 2006 by Solomon
Wild Card Posted March 13, 2006 Posted March 13, 2006 Amen to that Brother! Wives have a way of impacting your collecting habits. "What do you mean we don't have money for groceries? I don't care if you ate mac and cheese and tuna in college for a month so you could buy some stupid Red Chicken Medal with swords on it. The children need milk and real food." Amen!But medals (?How much did that Bavarian cross cost??) is a lot easier than my former life (?How much were those new propellers??) - boat racing.Hey Solomon, much happiness and a great life to you both. Wild Card
Solomon Posted March 13, 2006 Author Posted March 13, 2006 Amen!But medals (?How much did that Bavarian cross cost??) is a lot easier than my former life (?How much were those new propellers??) - boat racing.Hey Solomon, much happiness and a great life to you both. Wild CardMy wife only asks how many pakets the next week will arrive...about the costs I better say nothing But in June I?ve to reduce my buying...we?ll become a baby GreetingsSolomon
David Gregory Posted March 14, 2006 Posted March 14, 2006 Solomon,Very nice!Congratulations and all the best for you and your family for the future.If you need a babysitter for your collection when the real baby arrives, please let me know. I don't live far away. David
Solomon Posted March 18, 2006 Author Posted March 18, 2006 Solomon,Very nice!Congratulations and all the best for you and your family for the future.If you need a babysitter for your collection when the real baby arrives, please let me know. I don't live far away. DavidThank you Hmm...i think we?ll need a babysitter for the baby in the future...my collection is allready grown-up By the way..how far is "not far away" ?Best wishes,Solomon
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