For Research Explain these uniforms

[ccj]

Please explain these uniforms worn by the two Generals. I know the one on the left is von Moltke but I have no idea about the other general.

It appears von Moltke is wearing a M1910 tunic with unusual tabs and black (?) trousers. I didn't know black trousers were worn with field gray tunics. The other general is wearing a Litewka with non-generals tabs and superb large generals shoulder boards.

Can anyone explain the dress and if these men are outditted per regulations?

[Hoss]

Hello

At first I thought the soldier on the right was Felix Graf von Bothmer after google it isn't picture looks to be taken at an informal affair the trousers look dark gray to me? This site is good for Generals but there is a fee.

http://www.lexikon-deutschegenerale.de/biografien

Eric

[ccj]

Eric,

Is this site god for WW1 generals? I'm intereted if it has a good amount of generals from WW1 but if its more a WW2 I think I'll pass.

I still think the trousers like black

Charles

[ccj]

I wouldn't recommend it for those researching generals of WW1 or after. 10€ for 7 days WAS TOO MUCH for what's there in my opinion. Maybe in a few years when he have more data.

Hello

At first I thought the soldier on the right was Felix Graf von Bothmer after google it isn't picture looks to be taken at an informal affair the trousers look dark gray to me? This site is good for Generals but there is a fee.

http://www.lexikon-deutschegenerale.de/biografien

Eric

[ccj]

I still would like more opinion on whether or not Von Moltke is wearing black generals trousers.

[Hoss]

I still think he is wearing red stripe stonegrau, the tunic looks wartime made feldgrau. the right old boy is wearing prewar uniform that tented to match more. Come on old timers who is the General on the right?

Eric

[ccj]

I think it's Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg the German Chancellor on the right.

[IrishGunner]

I think it's Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg the German Chancellor on the right.

I'd say you are correct.

Reichskanzler Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg (li.) im Gespräch mit dem Staatssekretär des Auswärtigen Gottlieb von Jagow (Mitte) und dem Staatssekretär im Reichsschatzamt Karl Helfferich (re.)

(Foto: Süddeutsche Zeitung Photo)

[Glenn J]

Bethmann was a Generalleutnant à la suite der Armee with uniform of 1. Garde-Dragoner-Regiment. He appears to be wearing the M15 pattern boards for this regiment for a General and the Kleiner Rock.

I think Generaloberst v. Moltke's trousers are probably dark grey. He is wearing the M10 pattern Generals' Feldbluse cuffs with the collar litzen of a Generaladjutant.

Regards

Glenn

[ccj]

Ok, am I wrong or are several of these officers wearing black trousers?

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[ccj]

Photo borrowed from forum..... Looks like several are wearing black trousers

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

for some reason I think Bavarians had a thing for Corduroy trousers... I am sure they would photograph darker than normal ones?

[ccj]

You think cords... I don't think the Officer 3rd from left is wearing cords. I think he is wearing a nicely cut park of trousers in black or extremely dark. He looks like a Prussian Cuirassier officer to me.

[Bayern]

Hello : The litewka for generals  not always was used with alt larisch braid Bethmann Yes he is , carries the light blue collar patch of his regiment GDR 1 piped in red . and the shoulder boards of a general but with a double backing light blue over red of the dragoons . Hindenburg used to wear th litewka with the collar patches of the 3rd Foot guards and general shoulder boards with the yellow backing of his regiment .The gentlemen of prince Leopold HQ wears the old graublau melierte hose in fact near black trousers . they were tolerated . mostly in the east front . Cords .... the use of cord trousers was not uncommon but was most common in the Landsturm or Landwehr . Another option to use black trousers were the Galahosen introduced with the Kunftigefriedenuniform of 1915 but is not the case of the photo One rarity is the tunic of the 3d man from the left a hybrid between a koller and a mountain bluse . cheers

[ccj]

Over the last several years I’ve seen dozens of photos of officers and generals wearing black trousers with field gray tunics. Was this done as semi dress or was it just a preference?
 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by ccj

[ccj]

[Bayern]

On 23/02/2020 at 15:35, ccj said:

Over the last several years I’ve seen dozens of photos of officers and generals wearing black trousers with field gray tunics. Was this done as semi dress or was it just a preference?
 

 

The tall man with lancer uniform on the second pic is Lieutenant Max Mulzer ,a former officer in the 8th Bavarian Chevaulegers . he was awarded  with the Max Joseph Order and then became Ritter von Mulzer . he wears  the field grey model of the Bavarian lancer tunic called Spencer and not Ulanka ,with the white regimental piping on collar cuffs and lapels. curiously he wears the Parade trousers of the peacetime uniform ,stahlgrun with wide white Lampassen on the sides .

[ccj]

Thanks, I’ve not heard the term Spencer before. I really don’t know why I’m fascinated by photos of what appear to be officers wearing black dress trousers with field gray tunic and cap. 

[Bayern]

My pleasure !  Once I read who was the Spencer that gave his name to the tunic but i forgot it . probably some soldier of fortune serving in the Bavarian Army in the time  when Count Rumford reorganized it being War minister  of the Elector . regarding the officers wearing black trousers I think that they were allowed to use the peacetime trousers or breeches as economy measure 

[Trooper_D]

On 12/03/2020 at 04:18, Bayern said:

The tall man with lancer uniform on the second pic is Lieutenant Max Mulzer ,a former officer in the 8th Bavarian Chevaulegers . he was awarded  with the Max Joseph Order and then became Ritter von Mulzer . he wears  the field grey model of the Bavarian lancer tunic called Spencer and not Ulanka ,with the white regimental piping on collar cuffs and lapels.

I was intrigued by the use of the English name 'Spencer' for a seemingly German item of uniform. As ever, the Oxford English Dictionary is helpful,

The Wikipedia article on the second Earl alleges that the garment came about when the tails on the Earl's (perhaps double-breasted?) coat got burnt and he had them cut off. Other Internet sources suggest that the new short coat was adopted by the Napoleonic French army. 

However, do we know that the term 'Spencer' is actually correct for the tunic worn by the Bavarian Chevauleger. Might someone be able to provide an extract of Bavarian dress regulations?