Soviet Authenticity questions

[Greg Collins]

Ah, now I get it (takes longer at an advanced age)! Could be "lowering the line" or, just maybe, tastes change. Who knows?

[JapanX]

We'll see

But personally I think

[Eric Gaumann]

Thanks! While I'd prefer a T1 I think I could live with this Type.

Trouble is the seller is, at the moment, not accepting returns.

A very wise man once said 'you must have a mutually agreeable return policy' to make a deal.

With that in mind I wrote to the seller this note.

"Hello friends. Would you accept a return on this item if I wasn't happy with it?

Say like a 3 or 4 week period in which I could have it authenticated? Not that I doubt you at all; the rest of your items look good, and I am an experienced Soviet collector so I have a good idea of what I'm looking for. But having said that the Belgrade medal is heavily reproduced and even though I've gotten one positive response on a forum about this particular medal already I'd really like to have something to fall back on (the return option). I know as a buyer I have the Ebay buyer's protection deal but if worse comes to worse we'd both have to jump through hoops and it would be an acrimonious situation which I would just as soon avoid if possible. Will you work with me a little on this, please? Thank you, Sincerely, Eric... PS. If needed could you supply some more images, please?"

Seems reasonable, no?

Here was the reply:

"Eric, I just added a few more pictures(to the auction), FYI. Best Regards,"

He totally ignored the main point of my post. I can only assume he absolutely will NOT accept any sort of return for any reason.

Which is fine, after all it's his auction.

Trouble is I can't bid on it because of our mutually exclusive stance on returns.

[Aurelius]

Ericsky, I don't offer refunds when I sell either. My items are authentic so why the need to offer a return policy.

You do have an option though. If it is being sold as original or authentic and you buy it, right after it arrives, post the pics. If thumbs down and fake, you can complain to Ebay and would win. But you have to do it within a month to make your complaint. It is a pain in the butt though. The best in such circumstances is to bypass the item all together-much less a pain in the butt.

Interesting discussion before. "Rare" is dependent on who sees it as rare and wants it. The term is used zillions of time in the hobby and in my opinion, overused. Try selling it though.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Aurelius

[Aurelius]

ps Regarding collecting for investing, order wise, Nevskys, RBs and the higher awards. This is what the investors are snapping up and will have dynamite returns in the future. I've been told this by friends in Russia and Ukraine many times.

I have RBs but none of the others given the costs plus I don't collect for investment purposes.

Thinking your wartime RSs will be worth thousands and thousands in the near future-good luck unless a night witch or a super write up.

[Eric Gaumann]

Quick update, the seller just wrote me:

"Hi Eric, yes- I can give you the standard 2 weeks (14 days) return no questions asked, from the day you receive the medal, despite that it is against my official policy (based on the previous buyer's abuse). This time should be reasonable for authentication, and also minimizes my "market time" losses in case you change your mind. Please let me know what exactly you'd like to see on the picture, and I'll scan it for you at a very high resolution. Best Regards,"

Now that is very accomodating and makes me feel a whole lot better about the situation.
See, all it takes a little shift to go from bad to good.

[Eric Gaumann]

Four more images of the Belgrade in question:

Anybody see anything they do not like?????????

[Ferdinand]

That's a good thing. Personally I would always make sure an item is real before purchasing it, but chances are you would have been able to get your money back through eBay anyway, even if the seller doesn't accept returns. eBay always sides with the buyer. It happened to me as a seller recently - I sold an order, the buyer claims he never got it, and PayPal immediately refunds the buyer and deducts the amount from my account. The order was sent via registered mail, I have proof of shipment, and I even have the buyer's signature, but PayPal does not refund me. I am now trying to get the money back through litigation, but the point I want to make is that as a buyer, you simply cannot lose.

Regarding collecting for investing. I have never cared about this. If I buy a car for half a grand, it is only worth half that by the time I have left the showroom. I buy awards because I'm a phalerist and most of them will probably remain in my collection for the rest of my life anyway. You never know how prices are going to develop - in 2007 nobody would have expected that prices would skyrocket in 2008, and at that time nobody would have expected that they would be plummeting shortly afterward. Disregarding the unique situation in Russia in the 1990s, I doubt investing in awards is more profitable than putting your money in a savings account.

[JapanX]

ps Regarding collecting for investing, order wise, Nevskys, RBs and the higher awards. This is what the investors are snapping up and will have dynamite returns in the future. I've been told this by friends in Russia and Ukraine many times.

Aha!

"Friends from Russia and Ukraine"

Then it must be true!

[JapanX]

Quick update, the seller just wrote me:

".... based on the previous buyer's abuse"

"Buyers abuse" ...

I like that!

[JapanX]

Regarding collecting for investing. I have never cared about this. If I buy a car for half a grand, it is only worth half that by the time I have left the showroom. I buy awards because I'm a phalerist and most of them will probably remain in my collection for the rest of my life anyway.

You never know how prices are going to develop - in 2007 nobody would have expected that prices would skyrocket in 2008, and at that time nobody would have expected that they would be plummeting shortly afterward. Disregarding the unique situation in Russia in the 1990s, I doubt investing in awards is more profitable than putting your money in a savings account.

Year after year naive russian and ukrainian dealers keep on saying that another "2005-2008 price rally" is around the conner ...

Dream on!

Edited August 9, 2013 by JapanX

[JapanX]

By the way, the earlier date for "shovel" that I was able to find is May 1, 1946

[Ferdinand]

One more thing about rarity. Of course the term is being used excessively and regularly applied to awards that are not rare at all, or scarce at best. But another aspect is that many people seem to think that a variation with a limited number of pieces issued justifies a high price. The 1985 OPW is a good example. If the production runs of each manufacturer constitute unique variations, you end up with a large list of variations, each with a relatively small serial number range. But I would never pay a large amount of money for a 1985 OPW, because in the end there were millions of them. The same goes for research. How many researched decorations have you seen that were awarded to soldiers in, say, the 1053rd Rifle Regiment? Not that many probably, but that doesn't make this regiment more valuable than any other regiment.

Yesterday I was offered a standard OPW2 for $200 above market value because it was "rare due to its unusually long screwpost" - yeah right...

[Rogi]

One more thing about rarity. Of course the term is being used excessively and regularly applied to awards that are not rare at all, or scarce at best. But another aspect is that many people seem to think that a variation with a limited number of pieces issued justifies a high price. The 1985 OPW is a good example. If the production runs of each manufacturer constitute unique variations, you end up with a large list of variations, each with a relatively small serial number range. But I would never pay a large amount of money for a 1985 OPW, because in the end there were millions of them. The same goes for research. How many researched decorations have you seen that were awarded to soldiers in, say, the 1053rd Rifle Regiment? Not that many probably, but that doesn't make this regiment more valuable than any other regiment.

Yesterday I was offered a standard OPW2 for $200 above market value because it was "rare due to its unusually long screwpost" - yeah right...

To some guys....size matters lol hehehe I had to drop that one in hehehe

[Aurelius]

Aha!

"Friends from Russia and Ukraine"

Then it must be true!

Actually Nick, it is true. Not sure why the rude smileys and mocking of people. We have yet to see your collection. I fully realise that you are busy posting thread after thread of the same eastern Ebay type awards which no one can afford and of course, the research that next to no one can understand because it isn't translated. :lol:

[JapanX]

Actually Nick, it is true.

Dealer dreams and nothing more

We have yet to see your collection.

I am surprised that you didn't write "we should see your collection"

I fully realise that you are busy posting thread after thread of the same eastern Ebay type awards which no one can afford and of course, the research that next to no one can understand because it isn't translated.

Sounds like you don't really appreciate my threads

But you see at least my threads have pictures

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58710-opws-for-breadgrain-production/

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58711-independent-flamethrower-batallion/

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58595-niiiiiiiiiiiiiice/

As for "no one can afford and "no one can understand" - you certainly like generalizations

P.S. Please tell me what particular smiley did you find "rude" and why. So I can "fully realize"...

Edited August 10, 2013 by JapanX

[Aurelius]

This is futile. I thought this place had potential. Enjoy your continuation of the same boring threads.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz summarizes them.

I'm too old for this crap.

[Eric Gaumann]

Yes. Can we please stay on topic? Please?

I created this thread hoping we could get some discussion about authenticity issues; my own certainly, but others as well.

While I'd be more than happy to opine about what I consider "rare" I would much rather do it in a seperate thread.

Heck, I'd be more than happy to create a 'Rare' thread and cut and paste the replies from here to there.

But what I really want in this thread is help with this particular Belgrade.

I've got money to burn, and an opportunity to spend it, and all I see is talk about rarity of shovels, hurt feelings, smileys and long screwposts. Can I get a little help, PLEASE??????

[JapanX]

I'm too old for this crap.

Judging by your last two posts not really

I thought this place had potential.

For what?!

Boosting your sales?

Enjoy your continuation of the same boring threads.

I certainly will :beer:

[JapanX]

Can I get a little help, PLEASE??????

I can post additional boring photos of original shovels if you like.

Still think that this piece is original

P.S. As for my "more rare" comment - it had nothing to do with the prices

Early types and shovels (or, as they alternatively called, п-figured type) they cost about the same...

Edited August 10, 2013 by JapanX

[JapanX]

By the way, the earlier date for "shovel" that I was able to find is May 1, 1946

Here it is

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Comparative anatomy

(on the left the piece in question)

[JapanX]