Bavaria Best Bavarian MVO4?

[v.Perlet]

Hello spolei,

 

Thanks for the photos. congratulations a very good looking collectable.

 

"The fact that the 3rd Class Krone Swords shown was sold at auction does not make it any more original"

I totally agree with you on that individual occurrence.

 

However this seller and especially other auction companies selling/offering presently exactly the same thing, have a good reputation, and as discussed earlier there are unpleasant consequences for an auction company - that knowingly sells/advertises wrong/fake products or information.

 

I can't proof it but it seems obvious to me that known auction companies posses the same if not even more knowledge about these items then the normal average buyer/collector. So if it would be a fact or proven that an "original" MOV 3.Kl. has separate flames - then actually ALL auction companies would be knowingly lying.

And I think that would be a very tough verdict to give off.

 

Viewing upon your photo I can't really confirm a "separate flame" what it does show is that the attachment of the flame to the frame isn't as solid as seen on others or e.g. on mine. Maybe yours is a "bad quality"? (hey no offense meant okay - honestly) Probably my verdict or judgment might be very different upon holding it in my hands.

 

One thing I noticed in regards to MVO's 3.Kl. is that the frame of the cross-arms - is always in gold, even on those that are basically silver, but gold plated/coated. Whilst mine is clearly not, only the sword and the flames.

 

Maybe this could be one of the clues towards identification? or are there proven original MVO's 3.KL. that show silver framed crossarms?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited January 15, 2022 by v.Perlet

[VtwinVince]

No, the body of knowledge today shows that awarded examples of the BMVO3mS conform to certain standards, regardless of what auction houses are doing.

[Komtur]

This question was discussed here before: Difference betwenn BMVO3X and BMVO4X

 

Regards, Komtur.

[v.Perlet]

Hello Komtur

 

thanks for the input. However it makes the matter to me even more confusing.

 

1. the assessment by sashaw - No W&C made 3. Kl (but no proof for this assertion)

2. Both pictures posted, one by you and another poster showing a "woeschler" 3.Kl.

 

These pictures do show the separate flames clearly, but both crosses are not in gold (especially not the swords and frames) and one is stamped visibly 950. which is a silver marking not a gold marking.

 

They show no attributes of a MVO's 3.Klasse of the 1st grade (gold) and due to the missing (e.g. Generalarzt Dr. Brechtgold) gold plating on the swords, the frame, the crown and even on on the flames - both wouldn't even be MVO's 3.KL of the 2nd grade.

Due to being only in silver, they would both be MVO's 4.Kl. (only being somehow different due to the separate flames). So which content of information or "knowledge" cruising around the internet and diverse forums is actually correct?

 

Meaning I have yet to come across viable sources that would state; An MVO 4Kl. with separate flames is actually an MVO. 3KL.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited January 16, 2022 by v.Perlet

[Komtur]

5 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

... These pictures do show the separate flames clearly, but both crosses are not in gold (especially not the swords and frames) and one is stamped visibly 950. which is a silver marking not a gold marking.

 

They show no attributes of a MVO's 3.Klasse of the 1st grade (gold) and due to the missing (e.g. Generalarzt Dr. Brechtgold) gold plating on the swords, the frame, the crown and even on on the flames - both wouldn't even be MVO's 3.KL of the 2nd grade.

Due to being only in silver, they would both be MVO's 4.Kl. (only being somehow different due to the separate flames). So which content of information or "knowledge" cruising around the internet and diverse forums is actually correct?

 

Meaning I have yet to come across viable sources that would state; An MVO 4Kl. with separate flames is actually an MVO. 3KL. ...

 

I wouldn´t expect a gold marking on a silver gilded decoration ?

 

According to the sources (Roth, Erhard: Verleihungen von militärischen Orden und Ehrenzeichen des Königreichs Bayern im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914-1918) Generalarzt Dr. Paul Brecht got a Militärverdienstorden 3. Klasse mit Krone und Schwertern and never another class of this order. There is no doubt, that the medalbar because of the unique combination of orders and medals is the one of Dr. Brecht.

 

It is typical for the silver gilded German decorations of the late World War, that in this time because of the thin gilding of bad quality the gilding is faded away and seems to be sometimes nearly complete gone. This can be observed especially with the Bavarian Order of Military Merit, but you can see it for others, e.g. the Prussian Royal Houseorder of Hohenzollern, too.

 

Even if it isn´t to be seen clearly on the pictures, there are some remains of the gilding on the 3rd class on Brechts medal bar.

 

Regards, Komtur.

17 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

... One thing I noticed in regards to MVO's 3.Kl. is that the frame of the cross-arms - is always in gold, even on those that are basically silver, but gold plated/coated. Whilst mine is clearly not, only the sword and the flames. ...

These are news, I´ve never heard of and I can not remember, to have noticed such a special combination of material with an imperial order in gilded silver made in the late World War. Because of the lack of gold there was the regulation, that every formerly golden part was to be made in gilded silver.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Komtur

[v.Perlet]

Hello Komtur,

 

okay one thing is obvious; separate flames

Which in turn would give meaning to some posters having forwarded that the flames of an MOV 3.Kl. are hollow.

If the flames and body are cast in one piece, it would be impossible to retract the pusher from a mold used for casting a solid body with hollow flames.

 

To my understanding a mark e.g. 950 cant be used for a coating or gilding - it refers to a solid body made of silver.

e.g. the frame, swords, crowns and flames. Which in some cases then were gold gilded/coated in order to make it a MOV 3.KL. 2nd grade .

 

If a jeweler offers a necklace that is marked 950, then it is a chain that consists to 950 parts of silver and 50 parts of e.g. copper/brass. It would be fraud to have a chain made of e.g. 667 parts of copper/brass, with a silver coating or remaining 333 parts of silver and to mark it 950.

 

So far I was under the impression that MVO's 3.KL 1st grade are actually e.g. 750 gold, and MVO's 3Kl. 2nd grade are 900 respectively 950 silver, with an added gold coating. The latter like the one Generalarzt Dr. Paul Brecht was awarded.

 

However in view of the flames, then 99% or 99.9% of all offered MVO's 3KL would be fakes (or MVO's 4.KL. offered knowingly under false pretext) - since they all have no separate flames. WOW!!

 

Unless there are only certain makers, such as e.g. GH who has or made these hollow flames. Whilst other makers continued to manufacture full body MVO's. In turn an e.g. GH manufactured MVO would be rather a sign of reducing the silver-content compared to a massive silver cast. As such maybe a late war "cheaper" version for an MVO 3KL 2nd grade and also for all MVO 4KL.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[waldo]

Important topic

All MVOs made after 1916 no longer had gold parts. In the 4th grades, 
originally only the medallions were made of gold; after 1916, these 
were also made in silver/gold-plated. From the 3rd class upwards, 
all flames of the MVOs were used separately. As a sign of the gilding, 
the rear lower arm of the cross was surrounded by a widened frame in all 
classes. If this widened frame is not available, a 3rd class is a 
subsequently gold-plated 4th class. For example, I'm showing a 2nd class 
with X in silver/gilt, made after 1916.

The manufacturer Weiss & Co. did not produce any 3rd classes. Only 34 copies 
were retrofitted on September 13, 1916 from Knight's Crosses 2nd Class, 
with flames and swords. Thus one can state that none of the s/v copies 
of the manufacturer Weiss & Co. can show a broadened edge of the lower arm 
of the cross on the back, as they were not made in this way. There are only 
34 golden specimens from Weiss, which Weiss converted from Knight's Crosses 
2nd Class (according to the old classification).

The two-volume book about the MVO by Sascha Zimmermann should be available 
for purchase later this year. Here you will find what I have written here 
and everything else about the MVO on approx. 1000 pages.

Very few auction houses know that original silver/gold plated MVOs have 
extra inserted flames.

VG Walter

[waldo]

Here is a picture of the back of a 3rd class Krone X in 
silver/gold plated from the manufacturer Leser. Note the 
widened edge of the lower arm of the cross and the separately 
inserted flames (Sascha Wöschler archive)

Edited January 16, 2022 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

Hello Waldo

If this widened frame is not available, a 3rd class is a 
subsequently gold-plated 4th class.

Fully agree with you

 

Thus one can state that none of the s/v copies 
of the manufacturer Weiss & Co. can show a broadened edge of the lower arm 
of the cross on the back, as they were not made in this way

I disagree, since my MVO does show exactly this widened frame

 

 

Very few auction houses know that original silver/gold plated MVOs have 
extra inserted flames.

I also tend to disagree, since they certainly know as much as we do.

 

Also the woessler MVO you show is the one i already posted, noting that it does not have separate flames. (at least no visible gaps) to confirm.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited January 16, 2022 by v.Perlet

[waldo]

Servus from Bavaria,

Your MVO shown is a 4th grade with silver/gold plated medallions. 
The flames are not used separately.

If you don't want to believe it, I can't change that. Correct is:
Weiss did not manufacture 3rd class MVOs. All originally awarded 
3rd classes have extra inserted flames.

Here a 4th class from Weiss with silver/gilt medallions and flames 
embossed with it

 

 

 

 

Here the MVO from Sascha Wöschler's archive is greatly enlarged. 
You can see very well that the flames were not coined.

Edited January 16, 2022 by waldo

[Komtur]

As stated before by waldo

 

(1) the before golden parts of Bavarian orders were made after 1916 of gilded silver

(2) the widened frame of the lower arm backside was used as a simple identifying sign for gilded orders

(3) the medaillon of the 4th classes of the Bavarian Militärverdienstorden were made of gold until 1916.

 

Therefore a 4th class of this order had to be produced after 1916 with silver gilded medaillon and with a widened frame of the lower arm backside.

 

This can be illustrated by the award of a 4th class with crown and swords to Walter Eucken, who got this decoration on 28th of September in 1918. The order on his medal bar is made, as we could expect it.

[v.Perlet]

Servus Waldo, Hello Komtur,

 

thanks a lot for the input.

Komtur; I haven't seen that kind of arrangement on a medal-bar yet, as to where the MVO is placed last. What is the green order, some Freikorps medal? - anyway, a good looking collector item.

 

Waldo, to me this isn't about stating or believing that my MVO is a 3Kl. It is about making use of proven facts and information in order to generally identify an MVO3.

 

So far I have reasons to believe that the information existing in order to verify a MVO 3.KL and an MVO 4.Kl are not correct, but we will see.

 

Waldo and Komtur: many here write plated, some gilded, I assume it means the same?

 

Last question; as I wrote before, according to German jeweler standards, only solid silver material can be stamped e.g. 900 or 950 not some alloy that is coated with gold or silver. 

So if this standard naturally applies to MVO's, then that would mean all MVO parts (frame, flames, swords and crowns) stamped 900/950 are solid silver right?

 

Regards

v. Perlet

Edited January 17, 2022 by v.Perlet

[graham]

The 'Green Order' is a Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Order of the White Falcon 2nd Class Knights Cross with Swords.

Edited January 17, 2022 by graham

[waldo]

Servus,

Silver is hallmarked when the cross bearing the silver hallmarks is 
made of silver. The swords are often only stamped with 900. 
It doesn't matter whether the silver is gold plated or hollow. 
The carrier metal is more important. sh here too:

http://h2385226.stratoserver.net/wbb4/index.php?thread/63095-information-%C3%BCber-fineness stamp-in-silver-or-goldware/&postID=390930&highlight=Gesetz%2BSilberwaren#post390930

Just register, it doesn't cost anything, and then you can see 
the post.

1. If the cross is silver (more than 800/1000), it had to be stamped 
with a silver hallmark no later than January 1, 1888. In this case, 
the shape, whether hollow or solid, is not decisive. Even gilding the 
silver does not change the process.
2. Since the tools for the gold MVOs were available, they were also 
used for the silver/gold-plated MVOs. Otherwise one would have had 
to produce new embossing tools for all classes from the 2nd class 
upwards. This was also done in the 3rd class, even if it would have 
been easier to gild a 4th class. The real facts and evidence can be 
found in Sascha Zimmermann's book.

Thus, no gold stamps may be present on all silver/gold-plated MVOs.

Sorry, my english is very bad. I use an online translator. The terms 
can sometimes be misrepresented.

VG Walter

[Komtur]

7 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

... I haven't seen that kind of arrangement on a medal-bar yet, as to where the MVO is placed last. ...

It is arranged for civil wearing as so called Frackschnalle (tuxedo bar) starting with the highest decoration from the right.

[v.Perlet]

17 minutes ago, Komtur said:

It is arranged for civil wearing as so called Frackschnalle (tuxedo bar) starting with the highest decoration from the right.

I thought so - thanks for sharing the photo

Regards

v.Perlet

4 hours ago, graham said:

The 'Green Order' is a Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Order of the White Falcon 2nd Class Knights Cross with Swords.

Hello Graham,

 

thanks for the help and explanation.

Regards

v.Perlet

[v.Perlet]

Servus Waldo,

 

thanks for the link. Mid deim Englisch, des basst scho.

 

BTW, whilst checking on all the MVO stuff via internet, I couldn't help noticing that the average asking price for 

a MVO 4.KL incl box is in the meantime 500 - 700 Euro - are these realistic prices?

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[waldo]

Da legst Di nieda, bairisch kannst a.

 

My price estimate for an undamaged MVO 4 silver-plated with case is 
between 450 and 550 euros. Maybe 600 euros in the blue case.

Dealers much more expensive.

 

VG Walter

[spolei]

4 hours ago, waldo said:

Da legst Di nieda, bairisch kannst a.

 

Da hätte man sich die ganzen Übersetzungsorgien via Translator sparen können.

 

 

 

[v.Perlet]

Servus Walter,

 

scho, ober dann versteihn de ondern niet wos mir schmaddern dan.

 

Regarding MVO's. I have an original Soldiers handbook regrading the royal Bavarian army printed 1907 edition 1905.

There is also a section dedicated for soldiers to learn about recognizing medals.

In this 1905 edition only 1 order (MVO) is shown. described as Ritterkreuz II Klasse des Militaer Verdienst Ordens in Gold (for officers) and Militaer-Verdienst-Kreuz in Silber mit Schwertern (for non officers).

 

Since the Bavarian order edict of November 1905 states that the previous MVK in Silber is to be replaced by the "new" MVK (1906-1913-1918) this book logically does not show this "new MVK" - basically the one that is nowadays floating around the market, divided into 3 classes.

 

Since it is an official recognition guide for soldiers regarding the period 1905 and before, it would indicate that the (1905 MVK) looked exactly the same as an MVO only being in silver. Would that be correct?

 

Because if so, then what are these after 1905 (MVK's with blue enamel but no flames) shown in the internet supposed to really be? just fakes? or did the official recognition page just miss out on these medals?

 

Regards

Andreas

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by v.Perlet

[waldo]

Servus Andreas,

there were 3 different forms of MVK. 

1st form from 1866 - 1905, one class, silver, blue enamelled. 

2nd form from 1905 to late 1913, two-class, 
1st class silver with enameled front medallion of gold, 
2nd class only in silver. 

3. Form late 1913 - 1918 six classes, 
1st class with crown and swords (originals very rare), 
gold-plated, 
enameled VS medallion in gold, 
1st class with swords, as above but without a crown. 
2nd class with crown and swords, silvered with enameled VS 
medallion, 
2nd class with swords as above without crown, 
3rd class with crown and swords, coppered without enameled 
medallion, 
3rd class as above without crown. 

The swords were awarded for use in war. 
For the 1st form, the swords were subsequently donated and could 
be bought later. 
2nd form swords were only awarded in South West Africa (very rare) 
and 
3rd form swords for WW1.

Viele Grüße aus Bayern

Walter

But be careful, the 1st and 2nd forms are often faked, the 1st 
grades of the 3rd form too. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

Servus Walter,

 

thanks for all the pics. - always appreciated.

i am quite familiar with the MVK issue after 1905. Because the official 1907 handbook did not show or mention an MVO silver "without flames", I was just wondering.,since after a soldier would have studied this recognition guide and someone else would show up wearing that MVO silver without flames - he wouldn't know what it is.

Okay, maybe I am just putting to many thoughts into this.

 

Taking the actual feasible rarity of an original pre 1906 MVO in silver into account - 99% of those presently offered must be fakes, and price-wise they are even offered at half price of an MVO 4.KL.

Have you ever seen that NCO cross on a time-period photo? I have only seen it once on a pencil drawn portrait (not very clear so you cant make out the real features).

 

Gruess mir die Berge

Andreas

[waldo]

Servus Andreas,

ich grüße die Berge von Dir.

maybe I don't understand you correctly. MVOs without flames 
in silver did not exist before 1907 and later too. All MVOs 
prior to 1907 were in gold except 4th grade. So there were 
no MVOs without flames in silver. All MVKs had no flames.

Edited January 18, 2022 by waldo

[v.Perlet]

Hello Komtur,

 

you wrote:

(1) the before golden parts of Bavarian orders were made after 1916 of gilded silver

(2) the widened frame of the lower arm backside was used as a simple identifying sign for gilded orders

(3) the medaillon of the 4th classes of the Bavarian Militärverdienstorden were made of gold until 1916.

 

Therefore a 4th class of this order had to be produced after 1916 with silver gilded medaillon and with a widened frame of the lower arm backside.

 

This statement of yours and also forwarded by others is what I am having trouble with, since many MVO incl. mine do not match that description (and so far I have no reason to believe that mine or those others I have seen or held in my hands would be fakes) – far too well manufactured (even the weight is perfect) and detailed, as to serve the purpose of being a cheap to produce fake.

Okay so if you agree let's just forget about this frame issue for the time being.

As such one question; did the MVO manufactures e.g. Hemmerle or W&C, etc. produce manufacture their own Medallions or were these purchased from other sources?

Regards

v.Perlet

[v.Perlet]

Servus Walter,

 

Nach dem Beschreibungstext und Abbildungen mit Text zufolge, in dem original Soldatenhandbuch von 1907 (Edition 1905) gibt es nur 4 Bayerische Militaer Orden, der Rest sind, Hof und Staatsorden (z.B. diese Bruststerne), Gedenkmuenzen. z.b. China, Rettungsmedaille, Dienstauszeichnungen, etc.

 

1. Kommandeur-Kreuz und Ritter-Kreuz des Militaer-Max-Joseph-Ordens

2. Offizier-Kreuz des Militaer-Verdienst-Ordens ohne Band

3. Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse (vermutlich II Klasse, da ja der Orden 1. schon die Beeichnung Ritter-Kreuz beinhaltet)

Kann mir auch nicht vorstellen wie eine I Klasse desselben Ordens ausehen soll, da das oben erwaehnte Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse ja schon in Gold ist.

4. Militaer-Verdienst-Orden in Silber (gleiche Abbildung wie das Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse in Gold. (Also dem Zufolge mit Flammen)

 

Es gibt in diesem Buch keinen Hinweis,Text oder Abildungen eines MVO III. od. IV. Klasse, also vermute ich mal dass diese erst spaeter eingefuehrt wurden.

 

Nach dem Ordenserlass vom November 1905 wird der Militaer-Verdienst-Orden in Silber nicht mehr verliehen.

 

(Was klar ist, da ab 1906 das neue aus zwei Klassen bestehende MVK verliehen wird - eben das ohne Flammen und mit nicht emailierten Kreuzarmen).

 

Die Orden, Ritter-Kreuz II Klasse und das Militaer-Verdienst-Kreuz die im Krieg erworben werden tragen zusaetzlich Schwerter.

 

Kann natuerlich auch sein, dass man den Soldaten die dieses Buch gelesen haben nur Auszuege, oder die halbe Wahrheit  bzgl. Orden aufgetischt hat.??!

 

Aois klor etzet?

Gruss

Andreas

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by v.Perlet