ANYONE FAKING A PAUL McDANIEL CERTIFICATE?

[GeroiCCCP]

I stopped collecting Soviet orders and medals because the hobby was ruined by fakes. It's going the way of the German WWII/NAZI militaria. You have

to be crazy to get into that today. Even the "experts" are fooled.

So my question is: Has anyone run across a fake Paul McDaniel COA certificate yet with a questionable order/medal? I figure it's not a matter of if, but when.

I don't collect, but I do read up on the very little items I have left. Now that Paul has closed his authenticating business years ago, where would someone go to get something authenticated?

Thanks.

[Paul R]

I have not yet, but I am sure that it is bound to happen.  Are you talking about ground up fakes or assembled fake groups with original medals/orders?  

What sort of items are you looking for?  There are tons of originals around.

[Ferdinand]

Alexei Merezhko does authentications: http://home.netcom.com/~merezhko/authentications.html

It's true that fakes are getting better and better and even some of the simple campaign medals have been copied. Nowadays you either have to study the field of Soviet phaleristics exceptionally thoroughly to make an informed decision with regard to originality before venturing into eBay territory, or you have to decide not to bother with recognizing fakes at all and only buy from trusted dealers and fellow collectors. Once you have established a network of honest fellow collectors this is actually a pretty efficient way to build up a collection.

[GeroiCCCP]

Tp Paul R - I meant any high end order or medal which is a fake, accompanied by a fake McDaniel's document to fool those into thinking that the item is real. I NEVER buy medals on eBay, from strangers.

There just too many scammers out there! Many years ago, I visited Moscow and they had a sidewalk bazaar/swap meet...and I found an old Babushka selling some old pots and pans, clothing, shoes, old kitchen utensils, and an "old" German Knights Cross of the Iron Cross. It certainly looked worn. I had my friend ask her the story behind it. She said that her husband was a partisan and their group ambushed a group of Germans...and he ripped it off the throat of the dead officer. She claimed she didn't know what it was except that it was a medal for high ranking officers, and her husband didn't like talking about the war. My friend asked her how much for the medal, and she said XXX rubles ($500)!!!!! I looked closely at the medal and noticed L/58, a Rudolf Souval postwar creation. When I declined the price, she went down to $250, then $100...and I walked away. She knew exactly what she had.

Now imagine coming across the same Babushka, but this time, she has a fake Order of Lenin...and the gal seems not be sharp. She will sell it to you for $300 because you think she doesn't know the value of it...and she says, "I'll to glad to get rid of that! My husband was a hardcore Communist! I hated what it stood for!

Later, we went to a military collectors show in Moscow and I was shocked to see so many dealers selling the fake Nazi awards that you see over here!!!

I'm expecting to see a fake somewhere with a fake COA from Paul McDaniels, so I was wondering if it has hit the market yet. Just curious. I've been out of collecting for over a decade and was thinking of getting back in, and wanted to see how you veteran collectors are dealing with all this. Thank you all for responding.

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by GeroiCCCP
Typo

[Paul R]

I understand now.  I do not think it is impossible to reproduce a McDaniel's Certificate, but I have not heard of it yet.  Can you post images of the items you are interested in and we can all look and provide opinions that may help?

[RedMaestro]

I would guess that many items McDaniel authenticated passed through a reliable dealer or fellow collector at some point. So it should be possible to trace them, albeit with some difficulty. Perhaps Paul himself would be able to assist if you could find a way to get in touch with him.

 

[slava1stclass]

6 hours ago, GeroiCCCP said:

I NEVER buy medals on eBay, from strangers.

Gents,

  As I've noted on this forum and elsewhere, if one has the expertise/experience, eBay does produce the occasional gem - even from strangers.  In many instances sellers lack the expertise and/or interest to develop the full back story of the item they're selling.  Case in point - the OGIII awarded to the youngest Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory.  Sold on that site, the seller was entirely unaware of its stellar provenance.

  It all comes down to one's experience and certainly one's trust in the system.

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

 

[GeroiCCCP]

Thank you gentlemen! I don't have any questionable medals at this time. I was out of this hobby for a long time and wanted to know how bad it has gotten since I left. I think I'll sit it out for a while and just study the ones I have now.

[Paul R]

I dont know about the others, but I do not think that the situation is any worse than it was 10-15 years ago.  Medals and Orders are easy enough to find and there are a ton of reputable collectors and dealers.  Unless I know that I am looking at 100%, I tend to avoid ebay- especially when it comes to groups.

[NavyFCO]

I had heard a rumor of a fake PMcD certificate, but I've never seen one before. If something did seem questionable, he's still alive and kicking and I'm certain he could verify the certificate if need be. 

I do think some folks might be getting too suspicious about fakes...there's not always a goblin behind every corner. I bought out a small collection and sold almost all of it on eBay last week. I lost my shirt on the auctions...the stuff sold for about 75% of what I paid - and that was with me paying what I thought were "low end" prices! Egads! 

Anyway, one of the buyers (of a common medal) contacted me today wanting to return a medal because he thought it was fake. I've seen and handled around 700-800 of these medals (actually orders) since starting to collect in 1992, and in fact, this one was in a single US-based collection since 2001...but he's convinced it's fake. Oh well...I'll happily take it back because I think it sold for too little. His loss...

 

 

[new world]

Here's my take on your question.

I suspect that one reason we have not seen a fake PMD certificate is low credibility of such certificates in Russia. Yes, in the US and to some extent in Europe Paul McDaniel was undisputed guru, but not so much in Russia. I've heard this from several Russian collectors, they just don't care for his opinion/evaluation.

And since many fakes originate in Russia and are sold in Russia, the fakers probably didn't find it worth the effort to make fake PMD certificates.

[Ferdinand]

Another aspect might be that most collectors simply don't care about these certificates. I own a few awards that came with a McDaniel certificate, and the only reason I don't throw the certificates in the garbage is that some future buyer might find them useful. As mentioned above, McDaniel has been known to make mistakes (I believe one of his completely erroneous conclusions about a Red Banner 6th award was illustrated in this very forum) and there are several flaws in the way he drew up his certificates.

For the most part his information is either unclear, for example: "type 2" of a certain order - which one of the classifications in existence did he use? Or "this medal ranks in the top 95% for condition", as he decribed one of my HSU stars - what does this mean? Are 95 percent of all HSU stars out there in the same or in better condition? How is that useful information? And did he really examine all HSU stars in existence? Moreover, his analysis is way too subjective (how he describes damage) or only relevant at that specific point in time (again, damage, and in particular the amount of patina or gold plating remaining, which is subject to change over the years).

Edited February 3, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Paul R]

On 2/2/2016 at 18:24, NavyFCO said:

I had heard a rumor of a fake PMcD certificate, but I've never seen one before. If something did seem questionable, he's still alive and kicking and I'm certain he could verify the certificate if need be. 

I do think some folks might be getting too suspicious about fakes...there's not always a goblin behind every corner. I bought out a small collection and sold almost all of it on eBay last week. I lost my shirt on the auctions...the stuff sold for about 75% of what I paid - and that was with me paying what I thought were "low end" prices! Egads! 

Anyway, one of the buyers (of a common medal) contacted me today wanting to return a medal because he thought it was fake. I've seen and handled around 700-800 of these medals (actually orders) since starting to collect in 1992, and in fact, this one was in a single US-based collection since 2001...but he's convinced it's fake. Oh well...I'll happily take it back because I think it sold for too little. His loss...

 

 

So Dave, what order is this?  I may likie!! 

On 2/2/2016 at 18:24, NavyFCO said:

 

 

 

[paul wood]

The only dubious certificates I have seen are the Russian museum ones and if they say something is genuine it is almost certainly fake and vice-versa.

Paul

[JapanX]

Just now, new world said:

 

I suspect that one reason we have not seen a fake PMD certificate is low credibility of such certificates in Russia. Yes, in the US and to some extent in Europe Paul McDaniel was undisputed guru, but not so much in Russia. I've heard this from several Russian collectors, they just don't care for his opinion/evaluation.

 

No wonder  

 

 

Just now, GeroiCCCP said:

 I was out of this hobby for a long time and wanted to know how bad it has gotten since I left. I think I'll sit it out for a while and just study the ones I have now.

Very very bad.

 

 I think I'll sit it out for a while and just study the ones I have now.

Very wise decision.

[GeroiCCCP]

I've been collecting for a number of years, but I am ALWAYS learning from fellow collectors! Red Banner No.5 is a fake, with a PMD certificate! Wow! I appreciate everyone's kind response!!!

You are indeed, real gentleman!!! Thank you very very much!!!

[paul wood]

I get quite paranoid these days about high end Soviet to the point of wondering whether any of it is genuine and unfortunately it's going to strangle the market to death, much as happened to the Imperial German market when the Blass fakes started to swamp the market in the 70s and 80s.

Paul

[JapanX]

These days you should be paranoid even about Red Banners my dear Paul  

or take a look at these fake 3rd classes 

[paul wood]

Worrying but hopefully those would not get passed me, compared to some of the fakes I have encountered these are amateurish.

Paul