new world Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) Not the official high-level Monarchy awarded type, but the Bulgarian Orthodox Church award - order of Saints Cyril and Methodius. 2nd class. Made in Viena by V Mayer. Quite rare as a set, normally you see only crosses offered for sale, stars are scarce. Comes in the box, not sure if this is correct box though - that crest on the box does not look Bulgarian. Lovely set nevertheless! Edited November 10, 2017 by new world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickstrenk Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Nice,indeed.If it is yours,please,next photos of reverses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex K Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 agreed, very nice Alex K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 New World--simply a fantastic and extremely rare set!! Absolutely correct case for this award. The outer lid bears the arms of Archbishop Roberto Menini, O.F.M. Apostolic Vicar of Sofia and Plovdiv [1885-1916], who founded this Order in February, 1905 to recognize contributions to the Roman Catholic Church in Bulgaria. Pope Pius X sanctioned the Order later that same year. Men and women, Bulgarians and foreigners, all could qualify for this honor. Supposedly organized into 3 classes with First Class being a badge, sash & star; Second class, 1st division, being a neck badge & star; Second class, 2nd division, neck badge only; Third class breast badge worn on trifold ribbon. All insignia known made in Vienna by Meyer and so marked. First and Second class cases most often[3 of 4 I’ve seen!] have Menini’s arms on the outer lid but none of the five third class cases I’ve seen display the arms on the lid. Tsar Ferdinand tried to 'influence' abolition of this Order to pave the way for his own Order of Cyril & Methodius through many stratagems--all of which failed. When Menini died in 1916, however, this Order became 'obsolete'. Insignia of the higher grades is quite difficult to find, especially cased sets. I know [1959 to present] of only one cased First Class set plus 2 uncased sets, two cased Second Class with star [New World's, likely ex-Klenau auction ex-Robert McNamara collection] and one uncased set. Badges for Second Class with star insignia usually seem to be the same size as First Class sash badges while Second Class [without star] badges seem to be the same size as Third Class badges but fitted with a cravat loop. I recall seeing maybe 10-12 Third Class badges being offered for sale over the years but do not know how many were the same items being resold. Several articles on this Order describe it in more detail but none to my hand at present. Again, New World, what a wonderful and rare set!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 922F - excellent follow-up, I didn't expect so much information on this award! So, this is from Bulgarian Catholic Church, not Bulgarian Orthodox Church? I wasn't award Catholic Church had any significant influence in Bulgaria, as Bulgarians are mostly Orthodox. SS Cyril and Methodius are also orthodox saints, curious to see how they are connected to Catholics? Unfortunately the set is not mine, another collector showed me the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 The Set is very rare and nice especially with original box There are few makers -even french ones Here is a Star from Kretly ...plus more pictures of different Stars, Crosses and Breast badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Graf, thanks! I remember seeing Kretly star. I've noticed that star in pic #4 has a motto on the circle, while other stars don't. I am curious to know if that's a period variation or later modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 The Kretly stars seem a real curiosity. At one point they were posited as trial pieces for the Catholic Order and again as trials [with the motto ring] for the alleged 1920's Russian exile Order {see FAKE BULGARIAN ORDERS ON THE MARKET, post 193. Liverpool listed a star of this Kretly type with the "K" and Byzantine/Russian crown center]. One expert suggested that they were Second Class First Division stars. Note that they have a 'rounder' outer circumfrence than Meyer stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Hi 992 F, I am not quite sure that the Kretly Star is a trial It is properly marked for French Silver on the pin plus the Kretly mark plus the proper Kretly Plate, The Quality is typical Kretly Firm. I am not defending it simply because i own this Star Simply I analyze the facts. It is contrary to the unmarked Stars and Crosses sold recently on different Auctions and Dealers Sites BTW The Cross on Liverpool site, discussed in other thread, is sold. Unless there is a Vatican Document stating that the Austrian Firm Mayer was the sole designated maker of this decoration we have to accept that there could be other makers who gives their own Variation Depending od the materials they use The Mayer Star is typical Austrian type I can not remember where i saved the Star with the motto from. However I will try to trace the site. The Set i listed was sold on 259 Kuenker Auction in 2015 The badge is being on sale for a while on La Galerie Numismatique Supposedly it was already "sold' twice on two of theirs previous Auctions ??!! Best Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 (edited) I found better picture on the reverse site of the Star with the motto I remember now it was sold on the Hemman Historica a year ago It was stated that it is 1st Class Star - Breite 90 mm. Gewicht 76,2 g. Seltene Edited November 11, 2017 by Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 (edited) Hi Guys Here are the miniatures of the Order The badge is 18 mm wide and the Star is 24 mm wide -Silver gilded Best Graf Edited December 4, 2017 by Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Graf said: Hi Guys Here are the miniatures of the Order The badge is 18 mm wide and the Star is 24 mm wide -Silver gilded Best Graf Lovely minis, note how two ribbons are stitched together to wear these as a pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Hi New World Thank you for the comments. They are mounted to be worn together I assume this is the 1st Class Set I am not sure how how the awarding was in place Whether the persons awarded could be given the Order/Cross more then once 922F- any information will be appreciated I will post more pictures when the Set arrives Best Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 13 hours ago, Graf said: ... I assume this is the 1st Class Set ... this could be either 1st or 2nd class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 That is correct comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 (edited) Hi , i have the sets of minis in my hands They look fantastic The Star is very vaulted an the central medallion is hand crafted Gold Both the cross and the Star are marked with old Austrian marks and also V.M, which i assume is for V.. Mayer Vienna Here are more pictures Edited December 19, 2017 by Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 wow, stunning minis, extra rare - congrats on this find!!! I was thinking about the ribbon for this award - it looks like they were using Civil Merit order ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 First Graf, high congratulations on obtaining your set!! Magnificent pieces!! Seem to recall an article in the German Society journal regarding this Order and an award to Frau Krupp or someone of similar status published some years ago. Perhaps the lady received the first or second class as there was an image of a star on the cover of that issue. Will see if I can retrieve it; it may have had information on award eligibility and procedures. Dr. Paprikoff commented in the 1970's that Ferdinand actively discouraged Bulgarians from accepting this award--commentary that might be repeated in that same article. These miniatures may have been part of a collection possibly originating from a manufacturer's stock. I believe that Rothe's Kohlmarkt shop had similar items [displayed only upon request] in the late 1980's. The auction catalog offering them had a number of similar star/badge combination sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 14 hours ago, 922F said: ... Dr. Paprikoff commented in the 1970's that Ferdinand actively discouraged Bulgarians from accepting this award... I'd be curious to know why so, is it because they were awarded by Roman Catholic Church, not by official Orthodox religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 I suspect that Ferdinand disliked Menini's Order primarily due to its name and his possible perception of associated Roman Catholic influence or infringements in Bulgaria. Ferdinand intended to create a supreme Order for Bulgaria [and himself] using the same Saints' names. Remember the Tsar's troubled long term relationship with the Roman Catholic Church—likely a contributing overall negative factor towards Menini and his works from Ferdinand’s point of view. Here is the cover of Orden und Ehrenzeichen [June 2011] containing the article mentioned post 18 above. This issue may still be available directly from the DGO or from second-hand dealers or eB#y. Unaware of copyright protection I will not reproduce the contents. My German is rather poor but it appears that the article's Clerical Cyril & Methodius commentary indicates that Ferdinand detested Menini's ‘usurpation’ of the Saints’ names. The article describes Friedrich and Margarethe Krupp's contribution of thousands of marks towards Catholic charities, schools and so on in Bulgaria. Friedrich apparently received a St. Alexander [class unknown to me] around 1900-08--probably for armaments related ‘merits’. Margarethe’s award [document dated 16 March 1908] possibly reflects Menini’s recognition of her contributions to Catholic interests…and or a thumbing a nose at Ferdinand!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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