More Bavarian Mysteries

[filfoster]

OK, What's Leopold wearing? (Please ignore the photo of Ludwig III. Loaded by mistake-can't delete it!). 

I can guess or make out:

1. St George 1889 Jubilee medal

2. Max Joseph Order

3. Military Merit Order 3rd with swords

4. Ludwig Order

5. Luitpold 1909 70 year Jubilee medal

6.

7. Saxon ST. Henry medal? 

7-9.  Hanseatic crosses

10. Centenary Medal

11. Austrian FJ Tapferkeit

12. Centenary Medal

13. Turkish Lyakut medal

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Where's his Iron Cross 2nd class?  1870-71 medal?

Edited August 27, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Does this medal bar still exist?  In a museum?

[Schießplatzmeister]

Here is a photo of the Leopold Prinz von Bayern's large medal bar as it existed at Hohenschwangau Castle prior to being stolen.  There is also a listing of the awards that remained on it (most gold orders appear to have been removed.  Perhaps some were returned to the Order Chancellery per statute?). The photo and listing is from the Bavarian Police information poster after the burglary of November, 2005.

 

Here is an article regarding the burglary and the recovery of some of the stolen items:

https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/bayern/Gestohlene-Orden-aus-Schloss-Hohenschwangau-sind-zurueck-id7964841.html

 

Here is a link to the current Bavarian Police information regarding pieces which were not recovered:

https://www.polizei.bayern.de/fahndung/sachen/diebesgut/index.html/12400

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Schießplatzmeister

[Schießplatzmeister]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:43, filfoster said:

Where's his Iron Cross 2nd class?  1870-71 medal?

I think that they are there underneath many layers of other awards.  You can see that the "25" anniversary 1895 oakleaves for the EKII are there in your photo if you compare it to the photo of the group prior to it being stolen.  Also, the 1870/71 campaign medal would be directly under all of the campaign bars.

3 hours ago, filfoster said:

Does this medal bar still exist?  In a museum?

This is a good question.  It is not listed as still missing, so it may have been recovered.  I have a feeling that these items may no-longer be on display due to security concerns.  Perhaps some of our friends in Bavaria will know the answer regarding the current situation.

Here is a link to the Schloß and Museum website:

http://www.hohenschwangau.de/

Edited August 28, 2019 by Schießplatzmeister

[filfoster]

Scheissplatzmeister: Thank you!  That photo is invaluable.  That's the best photo of a medal bar belonging to one of the Great War Bavarian field marshals that I have seen.  Thank you again for sharing this!

Is that a ribbon for a Russian St. George Medal at the far right?

[filfoster]

Can anyone help identify the medals in the photo of Leopold above, wearing what looks like a post-war or late-war bar (Pour le Merite with oakleaf and Iron Cross Grand Cross worn, for example)?

I can see the Military Merit Order 3rd class with swords, a Leopold Order, his 1870-71 medal, with bars, Saxon St Henry, Hanseatic Crosses and the FJ tapferkeit, for example.

Edited August 29, 2019 by filfoster

[Schießplatzmeister]

The ribbon on the right does indeed look like a Russian St. George Order/Cross ribbon, but it is difficult to tell exactly what it is due to the fact that it is tightly folded.  The 1909 Militär-Handbuch shows no Russian awards for Leopold Prinz von Bayern.  He received quite a few foreign awards, including Austrian awards, so there are many possibilities.

[Daniel Krause]

Austrian Jubilee-Medal 1908 would be my bet.

 

Best,

Daniel

[filfoster]

59 minutes ago, Daniel Krause said:

Austrian Jubilee-Medal 1908 would be my bet.

 

Best,

Daniel

For the medal in front of the Turkish Lyakut medal in the top photo?

[saschaw]

15 hours ago, filfoster said:

For the medal in front of the Turkish Lyakut medal in the top photo?

No, for the empty ribbon that resembles the Russian St. George Order. My bet as well! The Inhaber-Jubiläums-Medaille was given in 1908 to foreign military personnel of the eleven units whose honourary regimental chief the Austrian Emperor was. It came in bronze for NCOs, in silver for officers and in gold for general ranks... the latter as Prinz Leopold would wear it. Here is a good, old thread on the medal...

By the way, I cannot see an Ottoman (small) Liyakat medal, but rather two (big) Imtiyaz medals. But it's all too crowded to recognize properly. For details as well as great pictures of literally all the Ottoman orders and medals, check Künker's 299th auction. They had an overwhelming amount of Ottoman awards offered.

Edited August 30, 2019 by saschaw

[filfoster]

OK, referring only to the top photo, what about this order:

1.       St George Order 1889 Jubilee Medal

2.       Military Max Joseph Order

3.       BVMO 3^rd + swords

4.       Ludwig Order

5.       Iron Cross 2^nd

6.       Luitpold 1908 Jubilee Medal (70 Years)

7..    Mecklenburg-Schwerin 1870 Cross

8.      1870 Medal + 7 clasps

9.      Bav 1866 cross

10.  Prussian Centenary Medal

11.   Saxon St Henry cross

12-14.   Hanseatic Crosses Bremen, Hamburg, Lubeck

15.   Bavarian 40 years service cross

16.   Austrian 1898 Jubilee Tapferkeit cross

17.   Austrian 1908 Jubilee medal

18.   Turkish Lyakut medal

Edited September 25, 2019 by filfoster

[spolei]

Hello,
that's no BMVO third class swords, it is a Ritter 1 with swords. He got his decorations in the 1866 and 1870 campaigns.
He was reactivated in 1914 as a general, so he would be awarded with the highest class of orders.

[filfoster]

Spolei: Thanks for that.  I am not sure. His other peacetime bar above, shows the 3rd Class and the photo medal looks too small to be the 1st class worn on the medal bar.  Would it be possible he continued to wear the 3rd class on the medal bar, even if he had been awarded the 1st class or Grand Cross?  

[waldo]

Andreas does not mean a 1st class MVO, but a 1st class Knight's Cross 
according to the old statutes.

[filfoster]

Does this medal look the same as the Military Merit Order 3rd class with swords? I admit I'm not up to speed on some of the nomenclature but this medal looks like the blue enameled cross with the "L" in the central medallion that I call the Bavarian Military Merit Order and I'm not finding references to a 'knight's cross' for this.  I am confused (a sadly common condition now at my age).

The medal just visible beneath this one looks like a knight's cross for the Max Joseph Order.

Edited September 26, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

Pending the resolution of the 3rd place medal, is my stab at the medal bar order in the post above correct?

[spolei]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello, I'm trying to explain the individual stages of the MVO with a translator
Until 1905 there were 5 classes of the MVO.
Grand Cross + Star
Grand Commander + Star
Commander + Star
Knight 1
Knight 2
The knight crosses were made of gold, the first class was with flames, the second class without flames.
In 1900, the officer's cross was also introduced
that was placed between Commander and Knight 1.
NCO`s and soldiers got the Military Merit Cross, same size as the Ritter 1 but made of silver, only one class.
In 1891 Prince Regent Luitpold donated the swords for combattants.
War veterans ( 1866 and 1870/71) were allowed to retrofit the swords their awards at their own expense.
The colonial awardings were then awarded with swords.

In 1905 the classes were switched to
Grand Cross + star
1st class (previously Grand Commander) + star
2nd class (previously Commander) + star
officer's cross
3rd class (previously Knight 1)
4th grade (previously Knight 2)
In addition, the crown was added to the individual classes.
The Military Merit Cross got 2 classes.

From 1913 till 1918
The military merit cross was changed in first, second and third class in addition the crown, so that we had 6 classes.
The MVO was not increased further
Regards Andreas

3 hours ago, filfoster said:

 

The medal just visible beneath this one looks like a knight's cross for the Max Joseph Order.

He got the MMJO in the 1870 war, in WW1 the Grandcross of the MMJO

[waldo]

Andreas, zeig doch mal Bilder eines Ritter 1 und einer 3. Klasse

[filfoster]

Bitte!  I wish to see the difference because I will make a reproduction of this medal bar. I hope there is no significant difference between the old Knight 1 and the later 3rd Class with swords, as only the latter is available as a reproduction.

Edited September 26, 2019 by filfoster

[spolei]

here two examples.
https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/c/deutsche-staaten/bayern-koenigreich/page/3

[filfoster]

For the purposes of a repro medal bar, it looks like the 3rd class will do.

[waldo]

I think so too

[filfoster]

Anyone have any corrections to the precedence last suggested above? Alles korrect?

Edited September 28, 2019 by filfoster

[filfoster]

OK, then everyone thinks this order of precedence for Leopold's medal bar is OK?

1.       St George Order 1889 Jubilee Medal

2.       Military Max Joseph Order

3.       BVMO 3^rd + swords  (or Knight 1st, old statutes)

4.       Ludwig Order

5.       Iron Cross 2^nd

6.       Luitpold 1908 Jubilee Medal (70 Years)

7..    Mecklenburg-Schwerin 1870 Cross

8.      1870 Medal + 7 clasps

9.      Bav 1866 cross

10.  Prussian Centenary Medal

11.   Saxon St Henry cross

12-14.   Hanseatic Crosses Bremen, Hamburg, Lubeck

15.   Bavarian 40 years service cross

16.   Austrian 1898 Jubilee Tapferkeit cross

17.   Austrian 1908 Jubilee medal

18.   Turkish Lyakut medal

Edited October 2, 2019 by filfoster