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World's best Feldgrau tunic?


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1leib.thumb.jpg.0fd84fdf1c789593f6dc6fb45c99201a.jpgHi, will get the tabs done soon. My problem is, I think I have narrowed this down to one possible major, based on the fact that 1) this seems to have just prewar ribbon loops

2) This cord material is 100 % made for the field, if the guy was in service he would have had this with him in the field

3) All Leib regt Majors had the EK1 and much wider ribbon bars, this never had loops for an EK1 or wider bar

4) only one Major was killed before he got the EK1, he had a ribbon bar that would fit this perfectly.

problem was... he was killed in August 1914.... so the boards are a bit of a problem for me ..... Were these being worn at the outbreak of the war?

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How many Major's weren’t awarded the EK1 until the time these boards began being produced? Or, were there any newly promoted to major rank that had yet to be awarded the EKI before then?

Edited by ccj
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Hello, very nice tunic , the material is wool gabardine more ressistant to wear and tear than the other wool cloths employed in officers uniforms, and cheaper. the same material of which is made the tunic of General von Prittwitz und Gaffron exhibited in the Bavarian Army Museum, regarding the SBs . Knotel Sieg ,handbuch des Uniformkunde says that the use of matt SBs was authorized with the introduction of the M15 Feldbluse. by AKO of September 21th of 1915 in Prussia . Bavaria waited till March of 1916

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OK, here is where I am on this....

This tunic has the following points and questions....

1) It never had loops for an EK1

2) Everything points to these Major boards being original to this piece, pedigree going back 40-45 years and back then not bought from anyone in the Militaria scene.

3) A question mark because the boards have a red underlay, this pattern for infantry should have a white underlay. (The regiment had red until 1915, white after 1915)

So ... what is needed is to find a Major who never received an EK1 ... and an explanation as to why there are 1915-16 boards with a red undelay.

On a separate thread Dave Mosher is trying the same exercise with a GGR 2 uniform, but I have a big advantage, the Bavarian Records are there to look the men up. I was able to read the records of all men who served in the Leib Regiment as Major, or were ex Leib Regiment serving in other units.

Initially there was only one candidate with no EK1. As he was killed in the first week of the war, there was absolutely no explanation for the boards which are later boards, and the loops do not correspond.

The loops are for a small ribbon bar and not for a medal bar with a thick pin

So... I thought I had struck a dead end, and went through all the records again... and then I struck gold.....

First off... From what I see the whipcord uniforms were almost exclusively a field tunic, the material made for rough conditions, as seen by the fact that the colonial uniforms were made out of the same material. These were not only frowned on on the homefront, but the material was forbidden at some stage in the war.

So, the officer I found, an older major (Born 1871) who before the war was attached to the Bavarian Royal family, first as Military Tutor and Military travel Companion/Escort to a young Herzog, then as Personal Adjutant to Crown Prince Rupprecht.

The uniforms of the Flugal Adjutant for the various Kings is pretty much the same for Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Würrt. etc... But the Personal Adjutant for Crown Princes has some gaps in it... Prussia and Saxony have red underlayed shoulder boards, like the Flugal Adj. but for Bavarian it just says "Uniform of the Parent unit"... I would say it is a logical conclusion that even if not mentioned in the texts we have available, that the Bavarian Crown Princes Adj would have aligned with the Prussian and Saxon, just was all the Flugal Adj's were aligned... i.e. Red underlayed boards... and he would not have remained the odd man out as the only adjutant (King or Crown Prince) not to have the red underlay... especially since his regimental underlay was Red up until 1915 anyway...

Bavarian Flügel Adj had the red underlay and the same golden Crown that the Leib Regiment had… so we are more or less talking the same boards here…

if anyone has any thoughts on this, please add them below....

The awards.... the loops for the bar fits what he would have had in 1916.

In Mid 1915 he transferred from his duties as Adj to Rupprecht back to the Leib Regiment... but officially he was still Crown Prince Adj, this he stayed until mid June 1916 when he was finally “officially” transferred from Rupprechts service back to the Leib Regiment…. So until mid June 1916 he would have been wearing Adj. Boards… which in the Bavarian case would have been red underlayed with a gold crown… just like the Leib Regiment…

Now, the EK1… the officer in question did indeed receive the EK1… in the last week of june he was

1)      Buried in a collapsed celler after a heavy shell landed on their position,

2)      Awarded the EK1

3)      Suffered what seems to have been a heart attack

4)      Transferred to hospital, back to Bavaria, then months in a sanatorium to recover.

Being a professional officer as well as a nobleman who served (in Leib Regiment uniform) almost 5 years with the royal family, I think it safe to assume that he had a rather complete wardrobe. For this reason I am further going to assume that this field tunic went into the wardrobe and was maybe never worn again, hence the lack of loops for the ek. His service after June 1916 were restricted to a sanitorium stay, a passage through the Leib regiment Ersatz battalion, a stint in an office as head of the recruiting depot in München, then an honorable discharge from the army in Mid 1917.

Having read through many records over the years, he seems to have been one of those cases where heart problems and maybe shell shock led to him being sent back home.

As the months in uniform back in München would probably have been spent in a standard Rock, Kleinerock or Litewka, it is very unlikely that this tunic would ever have been worn again, and therefore I think it safe to assume an EK1 was never worn on it.

I welcome any thoughts….

The whole way through, I have made an effort not to fall into the “wishful thinking” mode… i.e. to stick to plausible, likely, believable conclusions….

So we have

-          A tunic with no name

-          Boards which are very likely to be original to the piece

-          1 Possible wearer

-          A logical explanation as to why the boards do not have a white underlay

-          The post June 1916 events indicate it was very likely he never wore this in the period after his EK1 award, hence no loops.

I welcome any critical thinking here… if anyone has any “yeah… but you forgot”s to add, please feel free…

Best

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, ccj said:

Interesting- have you found any photos of this man? 
what awards did he have leading up to 1916?

I couple of full body pics where he is literally 1cm tall (in a grou) on bad quality book paper... he may as well be caspar the friendly ghost.... he had 4-5 awards... fits perfectly in the loops EK2, MVO4class, Jubiläums medal and Sachsen Anhalt plus a Romanian one, but I dont know if they were still being worn.

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On 04/01/2020 at 09:41, Chris Boonzaier said:

OK, here is where I am on this....

This tunic has the following points and questions....

1) It never had loops for an EK1

2) Everything points to these Major boards being original to this piece, pedigree going back 40-45 years and back then not bought from anyone in the Militaria scene.

3) A question mark because the boards have a red underlay, this pattern for infantry should have a white underlay. (The regiment had red until 1915, white after 1915)

So ... what is needed is to find a Major who never received an EK1 ... and an explanation as to why there are 1915-16 boards with a red undelay.

On a separate thread Dave Mosher is trying the same exercise with a GGR 2 uniform, but I have a big advantage, the Bavarian Records are there to look the men up. I was able to read the records of all men who served in the Leib Regiment as Major, or were ex Leib Regiment serving in other units.

Initially there was only one candidate with no EK1. As he was killed in the first week of the war, there was absolutely no explanation for the boards which are later boards, and the loops do not correspond.

The loops are for a small ribbon bar and not for a medal bar with a thick pin

So... I thought I had struck a dead end, and went through all the records again... and then I struck gold.....

First off... From what I see the whipcord uniforms were almost exclusively a field tunic, the material made for rough conditions, as seen by the fact that the colonial uniforms were made out of the same material. These were not only frowned on on the homefront, but the material was forbidden at some stage in the war.

So, the officer I found, an older major (Born 1871) who before the war was attached to the Bavarian Royal family, first as Military Tutor and Military travel Companion/Escort to a young Herzog, then as Personal Adjutant to Crown Prince Rupprecht.

The uniforms of the Flugal Adjutant for the various Kings is pretty much the same for Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Würrt. etc... But the Personal Adjutant for Crown Princes has some gaps in it... Prussia and Saxony have red underlayed shoulder boards, like the Flugal Adj. but for Bavarian it just says "Uniform of the Parent unit"... I would say it is a logical conclusion that even if not mentioned in the texts we have available, that the Bavarian Crown Princes Adj would have aligned with the Prussian and Saxon, just was all the Flugal Adj's were aligned... i.e. Red underlayed boards... and he would not have remained the odd man out as the only adjutant (King or Crown Prince) not to have the red underlay... especially since his regimental underlay was Red up until 1915 anyway...

Bavarian Flügel Adj had the red underlay and the same golden Crown that the Leib Regiment had… so we are more or less talking the same boards here…

if anyone has any thoughts on this, please add them below....

The awards.... the loops for the bar fits what he would have had in 1916.

In Mid 1915 he transferred from his duties as Adj to Rupprecht back to the Leib Regiment... but officially he was still Crown Prince Adj, this he stayed until mid June 1916 when he was finally “officially” transferred from Rupprechts service back to the Leib Regiment…. So until mid June 1916 he would have been wearing Adj. Boards… which in the Bavarian case would have been red underlayed with a gold crown… just like the Leib Regiment…

Now, the EK1… the officer in question did indeed receive the EK1… in the last week of june he was

1)      Buried in a collapsed celler after a heavy shell landed on their position,

2)      Awarded the EK1

3)      Suffered what seems to have been a heart attack

4)      Transferred to hospital, back to Bavaria, then months in a sanatorium to recover.

Being a professional officer as well as a nobleman who served (in Leib Regiment uniform) almost 5 years with the royal family, I think it safe to assume that he had a rather complete wardrobe. For this reason I am further going to assume that this field tunic went into the wardrobe and was maybe never worn again, hence the lack of loops for the ek. His service after June 1916 were restricted to a sanitorium stay, a passage through the Leib regiment Ersatz battalion, a stint in an office as head of the recruiting depot in München, then an honorable discharge from the army in Mid 1917.

Having read through many records over the years, he seems to have been one of those cases where heart problems and maybe shell shock led to him being sent back home.

As the months in uniform back in München would probably have been spent in a standard Rock, Kleinerock or Litewka, it is very unlikely that this tunic would ever have been worn again, and therefore I think it safe to assume an EK1 was never worn on it.

I welcome any thoughts….

The whole way through, I have made an effort not to fall into the “wishful thinking” mode… i.e. to stick to plausible, likely, believable conclusions….

So we have

-          A tunic with no name

-          Boards which are very likely to be original to the piece

-          1 Possible wearer

-          A logical explanation as to why the boards do not have a white underlay

-          The post June 1916 events indicate it was very likely he never wore this in the period after his EK1 award, hence no loops.

I welcome any critical thinking here… if anyone has any “yeah… but you forgot”s to add, please feel free…

Best

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Chris,

Flügeladjutanten in Bavaria wore collar tabs with red velvet underlays - does your tunic have those? And is there a button for an aguilette under the right side shoulderboard? If so, that may confirm your theory, if not, that would be a strong counter indication.

I reinster here the pages from Pietsch/Knötel/Collas on Generaladjutanten and Flügeladjutanten that I posted in the Castell-Castell thread some time ago. Hope of use. 

Sandro

 

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17 hours ago, GdC26 said:

Chris,

Flügeladjutanten in Bavaria wore collar tabs with red velvet underlays - does your tunic have those? And is there a button for an aguilette under the right side shoulderboard? If so, that may confirm your theory, if not, that would be a strong counter indication.

I reinster here the pages from Pietsch/Knötel/Collas on Generaladjutanten and Flügeladjutanten that I posted in the Castell-Castell thread some time ago. Hope of use. 

Sandro

 

 

 

Hi,

 

indeed... I have been doing some reading up on this....

For the Flügel Adjutant it is clear and defined in the books.

In this case it is not a King's Flügel Adjutant but a Prince's Personal Adjutant, and there we find a grey area. I looked through Kraus, Knöttel and the Bavarian Officers uniform Vorschrift.

It seems that the information is incomplete... what we can read is that Personal Adjutants in Prussian and Saxony had special uniforms until 1914, at which time they reverted to the uniforms of their regular regiments, with the Aiguilette and red shoulder boards. Knöttel ignores the Bavarians but (and I must check when I get home) the Bavarians also had Personal Adjutants and according to the Vorschriften they always wore their units uniform with Aiguilette, no mention of a special uniform. Krause has a bit more detail, but does not mention what shoulder boards the Bavarians wore wore

Another point is, as we see on the Castell-Castell uniform, Flügel Adjutant has red boards with golden Crown, and the Leonrod group, who in his duties as Hofmeister, men doing duty as aides to the royal family wore boards with a red underlay and Gold Crown. as there is no info availible in the resources I think it a logical jump to assume that this applies to the Kronprinze Adjutant as well, otherwise they would be a strange exception.

There is no button, just traces that a butten was sewn unde the strap, but l think it probable that an Aiguilette was not really worn on this uniform as it seems to have been a pure field uniform, one, for the type of cloth it is made of, and two, the loops are exclusively for the small ribbon bar, while we very often see Adjutant photos with the men wearing full medals, in this case there have never been loops for a Medal Bar.

I must check my books this evening

All the best

Chris

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Chris,

Thanks. The descriptions below (Kraus and Knötel/Pietsch/Kollas, which in fact only deals with regs up to 1914) confirm that the adjutants to princes of the Bavarian royal house wore their regimental tunics with adjudant's sash and aguilettes. If the tunic indeed at some time had a button under the right shoulderboard that would support your theory that the tunic may have belonged to the personal adjudant of a Bavarian royal prince. 

The tunic is Leib-Regiment 1916 officer's tunic. The scans from Helm/Ströbel (Die feldgraue Friedens- und Kriegsbekleidung der k. Bayerischen Armee) confirm that Flügeladjutanten wore SB's matching those on your tunic. The problem then indeed seems to be that the person you have in mind apparently was not a Flügeladjutant.

It might help the discussion if you gave us the name of the major you thought the tunic might have belonged to, so  someone may source a picture if they have one. Is your candidate Ludwig Freiherr von Malsen? 

 Kind regards,

Sandro

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Edited by GdC26
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Chris,

Thanks. The descriptions below (Kraus and Knötel/Pietsch/Kollas, which in fact only deals with regs up to 1914) confirm that the adjutants to princes of the Bavarian royal house wore their regimental tunics with adjudant's sash and aguilettes. If the tunic indeed at some time had a button under the right shoulderboard that would support your theory that the tunic may have belonged to the personal adjudant of a Bavarian royal prince. 

The scans from Helm/Ströbel (Die feldgraue Friedens- und Kriegsbekleidung der k. Bayerischen Armee) confirms that Flügeladjutanten wore SB's matching those on your tunic. 

Problem is, though, that as per the above, the person you have in mind was not a Flügeladjutant, whilst the facing color of both the SB and the collar tabs suggest that the tunic in fact did belong to a Flügeladjutant.

It might help things if you explain who you had in mind: is it Ludwig Freiherr von Malsen? And why can't it for example be Maximilian Freiherr von and zu Bodmann (Flügeladjutant in the 1916 Rangliste with no EK I)?

 Sandro

Ps - the Bavarian Army museum book on Bavarian epaulettes and rank insignia gives the red underlay material for Flugeladjutanten-shoulderboards up to 1915 as velvet. Not sure whether that continued to apply post 1915, though.

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Hi,

sorry, forgot to mention, yes, Ludwig von Malsen.

I am 100% sure it is not a flügel Adj. Tunic.

The tunic is the least comman, but IMHO most attractive Leib regiment tunic with classic Leib Regiment collar tabs.

Beautiful examples can be seen on page 150 and page 279 of the Kraus color book, both in the Bavarian Army museum. one is to a Leutnant, one to an Oberst.

The only difference between my one and the Oberst on page 50 (other than the EK1 loops) is the Oberst has the regular white underlay on his boards.

As far as the color of the boards go, for me the logical conclusion is that the Prussian and Saxon Personal Adjutants had the say underlay as the Flügel Adjutant... with the Bavarians we simply have no mention of the color, but IMHO it seems logical that they were also red because ....

1) The Prussians and the Saxons were red and step by step, at the latest in the war, uniforms became homogenous

2) If the states had a pattern so they could recognise each other Flügel Adj, it seems logical they would do this for the personal Adj as well

3) Most other positions with the Bavarian royal family had red from Flügel Adj to Hoffmeister

4) we do not have any information casting a doubt that they could have been red as we simply have no info at all

I am trying to think of all arguments for... and against.... so would there be any logical reason for the bavarian personal adjutant not to have red? Especially because, on daily duties away from his Boss, i would assume the Scharpe etc was not always worn and the boards would be used to identify him as Adj?.

The problem is, there would have been maybe 10 of these guys, so few it seems they found it a waste of time to write anything about them.

Nope, no photo. Malsen seems never to have made the big time, neither career wise or "hero" wise... he fades out of the Leiber history just at the moment when they began to really make their name and had left the army by 1917.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not a von Malsen fan... I could flip through the regt History and find 20 other officers who would be preferential for me.

 

 

Best

Chris

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" Ps - the Bavarian Army museum book on Bavarian epaulettes and rank insignia gives the red underlay material for Flugeladjutanten-shoulderboards up to 1915 as velvet. Not sure whether that continued to apply post 1915, though. "

Indeed... but the Personal Adjutant according to Knöttel and Co just have  an unspecified "Tuchunterlage".

Another reason why I think it an given that the personal adjutant had a red underlay... in the few Photos i have found with Rupprecht and his staff during the war... noone is wearing an Achselband or Fangschnurr... they seem to have dropped that outside of Germany... which seems logical, even if you are not in the front line... and in that case an identifiable set of Shoulder boards seems to be a must.

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