Help with 15 place medal bar

[Vit67]

Hello gentlemen,

 

I have recently acquired this, as I think, very nice medal bar in need of restoration. I would like to bring it back to life.

I have difficulties with ID-ing some awards and will appreciate any help with this (and what would the missing awards be?)

 

At this point  I suppose  awards are: 

1. EK2
2. KVK no X
3. ? - red faded ribbon....
4. ?
5. ?
6. Lippe Detmold verdienst kreuz
7. FA Oldenburg
8. Sachsen Meiningen Verdiens im kriege (with or without crown?)
9. Kriegshilfe
10. Hindenburg cross (I think with swords)
11. Fuer Oesterreich
12. TreueDienst 40?
13. ?
14. Hungary
15. Bulgaria

[laurentius]

Dear Vit67,

 

Number three could be the Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon. Number thirteen is most likely the Ottoman Red Cross Decoration.

 

A full restoration in my opinion is not a worthwhile effort. It would cost a tremendous amount of money, you'd need loads of the rare 15-mm ribbon which is commonly used on bigger bars not to mention the fact we won't be able to identify the medals missing after number three. It's a nice bar, you could fill up the empty ribbons but keep it at that.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Vit67]

Hi Laurentius

 

Thank you for your answer

 

5 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Number three could be the Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon. Number thirteen is most likely the Ottoman Red Cross Decoration.

There are clearly visible remains of stripes (faded? gone completely anyway) I need to research options here.

 

 

Unlikely I will replace the existing ribbons.they are totally fine, just re-fold and re-tight them.  So my job would be just source missing awards and try to figure out the missing ones, if no luck then will fit something that logically could be there (Hazeatenkreze perhaps ?)

 

And I think you are right about Ottoman Red Cross Decoration

 

 

 

[lew]

1 hour ago, Vit67 said:

There are clearly visible remains of stripes (faded? gone completely anyway) I need to research options here.

 

You can check if the color changes on the reverse of the ribbon and back side of the bar under backing material, but I bet it's just some threads that're a bit aged in the plain red ribbon. So it's also a White Falcon order to me.

[VtwinVince]

You're assuming this guy was an officer in the first conflict.

[laurentius]

2 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

You're assuming this guy was an officer in the first conflict.

He is, and I quite agree. I believe the missing part of the medalbar to be all imperial. I highly doubt that a soldier/NCO would get so many different German and foreign orders. Must have been some special guy, connected to the Red Cross.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Deruelle]

Hi,

 

The fourth ribbon should be the Ernestine knight cross

 

Christophe

[Vit67]

25 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

Hi,

 

The fourth ribbon should be the Ernestine knight cross

 

Christophe

It becomes more and more interesting!

 

[graham]

Number 4 looks like it could be a Liyakat Medal from the Ottoman empire. Strange placing though.

[922F]

Many tailors/technicians who assembled/mounted award bars used whatever scrap or spare ribbon to hand when mounting awards themselves to bars.  Then they added the correct ribbon formed into the familiar shape around the award.   While the correct ribbon may appear as the award mounting material, most bars I've seen with backing loose or removed display an assortment of varying ribbons or narrow strips of white/gray edge bound narrow cotton tape type material used for that purpose. 

 

This to indicate that the color of the red/green ribbon seen protruding beneath the KVK may have nothing to do with the item originally placed there.   

 

White with red central stripe ribbon could well be an Ottoman Red Cross [KVK & Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe could support this proposition] or maybe a Spanish MMO, white distinction.   In either case, odd that it appears where it does.

[Vit67]

Since I will strip all the ribbons anyway, I took off the one in question, number 3

Also i have marked all backing ribbons that match the awards, only few of them don't match.

Interestingly, for awards number 3 and one that supposedly is Osman red crescent, same backing ribbons were used, 

 

 

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Vit67 said:

Since I will strip all the ribbons anyway

Why strip the ribbons and ruin what's left of a great bar? Seems unwise to say the least.

[Vit67]

7 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Why strip the ribbons and ruin what's left of a great bar? Seems unwise to say the least.

How will I put the medals back on? I need to disassemble the bar, attach medals to the backing ribbons.

Besides, I am capable of putting them back together the way it was.  I even use period correct threads.

 

 

Just as an example. this one fully restored (it was even in much worse condition as the big one)

[lew]

Now I tend to believe it's a merit cross of white falcon on 3rd place judging from the tear down picture where it shows very low position where the medal was stitched on. Officer cross has a huge crown and much taller than merit cross. 

 

16 minutes ago, Vit67 said:

Just as an example. this one fully restored (it was even in much worse condition as the big one)

 

Would you mind to show the reverse? 

Edited June 18, 2021 by lew

[Vit67]

3 minutes ago, lew said:

Now I tend to believe it's a merit cross of white falcon on 3rd place judging from the tear down picture where it shows very low position where the medal was stitched on. Officer cross has a huge crown and much taller than merit cross. 

 

 

Would you mind to show the reverse? 

 

[lew]

You are dangerous?

 

[Vit67]

2 hours ago, lew said:

You are dangerous?

 

I will take it as a complement.

Thank you for helping in IDing 3rd award.

I recon 2 missing ones also some merit awards from other German states?

What those might be? (At this moment it looks like it is virtually impossible to  research this bar, isn't it?) 

[Valter]

Really interesting restoration project! It will take some time and money (and guessing/imagination of the missing #4 and 5), but it is worth to. According to the KVK OX and Prussian kriegshilfe cross, the single blue ribbon is probably 3rd reich civilian long service cross (25 or 40 years); if it would be army LS, there shuld be two ribbons. Or am I wrong? For numbers 4 & 5 we can only guess, but I think hanseatic crosses (although convinent and relatively cheap) are less likely. They are usually placed more rearward on such multi-state bars. For Prussian, there could be RAO and KO, or, as already suggested, same Saxon cross, and maybe something Bavarian?

[Vit67]

30 minutes ago, Triad08 said:

 

 

Ironically, you already provided us with a demonstration of this phenomenon.  This morning on Wehrmacht Awards Forum's E-Stand, you listed and subsequently sold one of your completely redone medal bars.  It features fresh, bright-colored ribbons and a modern, red felt backing.  Unfortunately, you forgot to disclose in your description the fact that it was a brand-new creation:

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forum/the-militaria-e-stand/medals-badges-awards-table/12407223-2-place-medal-bar-kvk-ostmedaille

 

I totally understand your point and respect your position, but you are wrong about above bar.  I don't do Prussian style bars. Too simple.

This one came to me without the awards in a large lot of damaged medal bars I have purchased recently. For some reason pictures look better than they are in real life, ribbons are faded and slightly worn.  There is nothing wrong with that bar. 

 

Besides I  have declared multiple times at WA forum that I do repair/restore/rebuild  medal bars and also my position on that matter. It is not a secret.  There is some people  who find it hard to accept, but at the same time there are many who  are sure it is not a crime. I can admit that I am capable of building ANY bar from scratch, but I am interested in large, complex restoration project like the one presented in here,  I also do  repair bars for  other people (missing medals, ribbons etc.) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vit67]

Restoration - the act or process of returning something to its earlier good condition or position, or to its owner. (Cambridge Dictionary)

 

Lets take a look at Medal bars as subject of collecting.

Problem with them is: in 9 cases out of 10 we are unable to  answer these questions:

- Who was the owner of the bar

- Who made/manufactured  the bar

- When it was manufactured

 

(Unless, of course, if "experts" with Chrystal ball, just looking at the picture of the bar can determine all of the  above.)

 

Effectively it denominates  item from "historical artifact" to a nicely arranged display of some random awards. Value of this bars equals monetary value of the medals on it. No significant  historical value whatsoever. (but yet still some history, if awards and ribbons  are authentic, )

If you buying a medal bar even with manufacturer label on it, say on a military fair, you choose to believe, without any  serious expertise, that this item is an  artifact, - please be my guest, it is surely a sophisticated way...

 

Absolutely different story with items furnished with solid provenance,  in the form  of  certificates, pictures of the owner with particular medal bar/ribbon bar. Normally items like this very well preserved, easily traceable etc, and do not require any manipulation.  Items like these are extremely valuable in my eyes - would never touch them.

All above makes  such items "lucky" everybody loves them, cherish them...

 

What about abused bars? Like the  one at the top? Medals just ripped off,  and if not restored it will be taken apart, sold by pieces, leftovers just dumped and ....boom! it's gone. Not on my watch: I find them, buy them, if possible research and and  restore. In difficult for me cases I always will be asking community to help in Id and other information that may help me.

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Triad08 said:

would generate little - if any - serious interest from sophisticated and discriminating collectors. 

Oh I am familiar with this classification: there are few types of people collectors:

- Pure, sophisticated type, they are the best, crème de la crème

- Others, lowlifes, third sort, "Souval hoarders" etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vit67]

1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

I've seen the OP's work on another forum.  The medal bars look a bit sterile... too perfect, devoid of character, conveying no sense of history.

It makes sense. I am actually was thinking about it.  

 

1 hour ago, Simius Rex said:

  At least write to Wilfried Freitag in Bad Dreiburg and buy some prewar Abdecktuch for heaven's sake.    

 Thank you for advice! I will do. (I suppose, this is what forums are for)

 

I knew, when I started to  show what I do,  it will be controversial, but I kinda love it and believe this sort of activity is absolutely normal. And eventually I will be very very good at this. And my supplies will be 300% authentic.

 

However  I  have no intention to  be in shadows, I see no benefit for me to produce bars from scratch  purely for resale purpose. 

 

 

Anyway.  good discussion. Thank you all.

 

Can we get back to 2 missing awards on the subject please?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[laurentius]

17 hours ago, Vit67 said:

Can we get back to 2 missing awards on the subject please?

Despite the suggestions made by other members I reiterate my opinion that the third decoration on the red ribbon should be the Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon. The silver merit cross of this order could be placed there as well, as was recommended by another member, however given the other decorations I find this to be a most unlikely combination. Given the primary connection to Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach I would think of a Saxe-Ernestine House-Order in place four followed by one or two Hanseatic crosses. 

 

This is all guesswork, other members and I recommend decorations based on what we think likely in combination with the orders/ribbons present. My thoughts could be completely right or completely wrong. One thing is certain, all the missing decorations between place two and place six are German state decoration. This limits it down, but still gives us a wide range.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Vit67]

5 hours ago, laurentius said:

Despite the suggestions made by other members I reiterate my opinion that the third decoration on the red ribbon should be the Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon. The silver merit cross of this order could be placed there as well, as was recommended by another member

 The idea about silver merit cross was based on the location of the stitching point where the missing orden was attached to backing ribbon.   White Falcon has a crown which makes it "taller" than other awards and therefore mounting point should be higher,  and actual mounting point is located slightly higher than KVK on the 2nd place.

But! this bar is Frakspange and if White Falcon would've  been mounted under the angle and leveled based on the center line, then it fits perfectly. (to make sure I will make a cardboard mockup of the orden and try it)

If this is true then your suggestion about Saxe-Ernestine House-Order becomes a highly possible option

 

Laurentius, thank you for your opinion!

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Vit67 said:

But! this bar is Frakspange and if White Falcon would've  been mounted under the angle and leveled based on the center line, then it fits perfectly. (to make sure I will make a cardboard mockup of the orden and try it)

If this is true then your suggestion about Saxe-Ernestine House-Order becomes a highly possible option

In a different thread I talked about removing the ring of taller decorations to fit them on medalbars. I have observed this practice with the Saxe-Ernestine House-Order and the Bulgarian Order of Bravery. Given the size of the Order of the White Falcon this might have happened here too, so I would advice making two cardboard mock-ups, one with and one without the ring. Ofcourse when refurbishing this medalbar I would advice against removing rings, unless you happened to find a ringless example.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Vit67]

I wonder, with this set of awards would it be possible to research the owner? I actually have no idea where to start. I would love to try. Any suggestions?