Soviet My Soviet Flags

[RichieC]

Flag1

[RichieC]

NavalFlag1

Edited March 16, 2007 by RichieC

[Christian Zulus]

The 163rd flag is pretty impressive! It's interesting that it has been repaired. It appears to have been in the sunlight for many years which destroyed the silk of the flag. I've had a good number of these through my hands over the years. I could easily collect them, but unfortunately that's more of a "rich man's hobby" than even order and medal collecting!

Dave

Dear Dave,

you are right, these very special flags are for a very "special" (and rich) community .

The prices are so high, because the items are completly illegal and criminal - a regimental, divisional, etc. flag can never be private property and being sold . It will always stay property of the state.

Complete flags are extraordinary rare, because the Yeltsin-Mafia broke the sets up and sold the flag and the attached orders separatly.

In our documented case of of the "163rd Romnensko-Kievskaja, Order of Lenin, Red Banner, Order of Suvorov (2cl) Infantry Division" the full set should consist of:

- the flag (as shown)

- the flags pole & metal top

- the protecting hood of the flag

- the mentioned 3 orders attached on a sleeve which hangs down from the top of the flag's pole

- the 3 (large documents) of the 3 orders

- the 2 (large documents) of the 2 honorary titles

The flag shown belonged to one of the top fighting units - 2 honorary names & 3 top orders - of the Red Army in the GPW. I don't want to guess it's market value .

It was not possible for the Yeltsin-Gang to sell this flag :

Best regards

Christian

Edited March 17, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Sergey]

Hi Sergey,

Many thanks for the help on these and for the translation. And don't worry... your English is actually very good. Just keep working on it... the more you use it the better it gets. But trust me... alot of native speakers don't do as well as you.

That last one you posted sure is a beaut, but if Christian is correct then someone will probably end up being in deep trouble over it.

Thanks!

Dan

Thanks for good words

[Sergey]

Gentlemen,

the last flag of the 163rd division is obviously stolen from the museum .

The new "owner" might get difficulties with the embassy, authorities and Interpol .

Just my few cents ...

Best regards

Christian

At Russian military forum where the seller has put this flag for 2000 US D there were many questions. Spoke that the banner is stolen from a museum. However the seller proved legality of the sale. My opinion that such sale and purchase is immoral. Certainly if this flag not a copy. It is very a pity but the world correct money

[NavyFCO]

At Russian military forum where the seller has put this flag for 2000 US D there were many questions. Spoke that the banner is stolen from a museum. However the seller proved legality of the sale. My opinion that such sale and purchase is immoral. Certainly if this flag not a copy. It is very a pity but the world correct money

For $2000, that seems to be about the right price for the condition, though it would be tough to resell later.

For all those questioning the immorality of buying or selling a unit flag: What's the difference between buying and selling a flag and buying and selling a unit award or document? If the unit no longer exists, there is no owner for it, and despite everyone's thoughts of the historical value, many of these unit items were kept in museums in the area where the unit was formed, many of those being far from Russia/Ukraine and after the end of communism, the people in these republics were GLAD to get rid of these "old vestiges" of communism.

Although it would be nice for the Russian government to preserve everything historic, it's an impossibility for them to do so. I believe it is better for some of these flags and other unit items to end up in the collection of someone who appreciates them and their historic value than any other option out there.

Dave

[JimZ]

For $2000, that seems to be about the right price for the condition, though it would be tough to resell later.

For all those questioning the immorality of buying or selling a unit flag: What's the difference between buying and selling a flag and buying and selling a unit award or document? If the unit no longer exists, there is no owner for it, and despite everyone's thoughts of the historical value, many of these unit items were kept in museums in the area where the unit was formed, many of those being far from Russia/Ukraine and after the end of communism, the people in these republics were GLAD to get rid of these "old vestiges" of communism.

Although it would be nice for the Russian government to preserve everything historic, it's an impossibility for them to do so. I believe it is better for some of these flags and other unit items to end up in the collection of someone who appreciates them and their historic value than any other option out there.

Dave

The same can well be said about orders and medals awarded to individuals! A unit was after all made up of men and one can therefore go on to challenge the morality of selling an individual's orders as well as a unit's!! It is immoral to sell stolen items.... that we all agree with! But as long as onwership is legal (orders, flags, whatever!!) then I see no problem with buying and selling such items! If the Russians prevent the sale of everything military, then we'd better start getting ready to give up collecting all together!

Jim

[Christian Zulus]

For $2000, that seems to be about the right price for the condition, though it would be tough to resell later.

For all those questioning the immorality of buying or selling a unit flag: What's the difference between buying and selling a flag and buying and selling a unit award or document? If the unit no longer exists, there is no owner for it, and despite everyone's thoughts of the historical value, many of these unit items were kept in museums in the area where the unit was formed, many of those being far from Russia/Ukraine and after the end of communism, the people in these republics were GLAD to get rid of these "old vestiges" of communism.

Although it would be nice for the Russian government to preserve everything historic, it's an impossibility for them to do so. I believe it is better for some of these flags and other unit items to end up in the collection of someone who appreciates them and their historic value than any other option out there.

Dave

Dear Dave,

you gave excellent arguements .

Maybe the local museum gave this special flag away, because of it's (very) poor condition ? But I don't believe in a somehow "legal" transfer, because all the orders + all documents are missing. They sold the orders separatly, burnt the documents and sold the flag - maybe restored it before. Typical case of the "glorious" and "cheap" times of the 1990s .

Following Dave's arguements, the 150th Infantry Division is also not existing anymore. So, Gentlemen, guess what the market price of the flag (incl. Order of Kutuzov 2cl + all documents) would be ? The condition of the flag is excellent, as you can see on the 3 photographs I posted.

Some military museums in the west might be very interested to get some unit flags from Russian museums, I assume.

Best regards

Christian

[Sergey]

The Lord ,

probably you living in the states with the issued political-economic system existing many decades cannot understand an event in former republics USSR .On 100 years vary politically-economic system three times. Change of a formation accompanies bloody time of numerous wars and Stalin cleaning. As a result to authority people thinking only about the pocket come .

I do not love communistic ideology. However during Soviet time there was an order. Bad business tried to hide. Now the law of-money Therefore now probably such sale of a banner .I think well that yet do not sell the Kremlin

[order_of_victory]

The Lord ,

probably you living in the states with the issued political-economic system existing many decades cannot understand an event in former republics USSR .On 100 years vary politically-economic system three times. Change of a formation accompanies bloody time of numerous wars and Stalin cleaning. As a result to authority people thinking only about the pocket come .

I do not love communistic ideology. However during Soviet time there was an order. Bad business tried to hide. Now the law of-money Therefore now probably such sale of a banner .I think well that yet do not sell the Kremlin

I know this going slightly if property is burnt down the owner loses the right to the land ands sombody one tried this on one of the governent buildings near Kermlin luckaly fire crews got there in time and building was saved, but just goes show nothing is sacred

Order of Victory

[Ferdinand]

I found another picture in my files of that flag of the 150th Order of Kutuzov 2nd Class Idritsk Rifle Division...

[Sergey]

I know this going slightly if property is burnt down the owner loses the right to the land ands sombody one tried this on one of the governent buildings near Kermlin luckaly fire crews got there in time and building was saved, but just goes show nothing is sacred

Order of Victory

[Sergey]

Interesting theme. We shall add lives. Military division whith a honourable banner Orol city Regional committee VLCSM . Twer air station 1947 .

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

Here's my latest edition... a copy yes, but of an item no one will ever be able to buy. I think it will make a great piece for my overall Soviet display when and if I ever get my bunker display area done.

Photos courtesy of Michael Bessler.

Dan

Edited August 14, 2007 by Hauptman

[RichieC]

Exactly Dan... A perfectly acceptable alternative for a display backdrop due the reason that you have mentioned...

Nice in any case...

[Hauptmann]

Exactly Dan... A perfectly acceptable alternative for a display backdrop due the reason that you have mentioned...

Nice in any case...

Hi Richie,

Many thanks! It was a good price and I just couldn't resist. I can't spend much right now as I had to buy a new laptop for work but just couldn't pass this one up. The seller had had several made up and this was his last to sell. I lucked out when no one else bid and couldn't be happier.

Can't wait till it gets here this week.

Dan

Edited August 14, 2007 by Hauptman

[Sergey]

Hi all,

Here's my latest edition... a copy yes, but of an item no one will ever be able to buy. I think it will make a great piece for my overall Soviet display when and if I ever get my bunker display area done.

Dan

Yes simply there are no words. It is good to look this thing

[Hauptmann]

Hi all,

My latest... a small banner from Paul Schmitt. Pics are his and used with his permission. Many thanks Paul!

[Hauptmann]

I love the Order of the Red Banner on this one... just had to have it.

Would be most grateful for a translation and any further info on this one.

Dan

Edited November 28, 2007 by Hauptman

[Sergey]

70 years of the basis of Far East military district. I think it the end of the eightieth years. The flag awarded small military formations.For high military skill is written.

[Sergey]

One more flag. Correctly to tell a small tag. Small because it is a flag for the smallest communists ( ОКТЯБРЯТ) age of 7-9 years.

[Bryan]

Is it supposed to be Lenin in the middle?

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, it is the young 'Lenin'.

[Sergey]

This portrait is made from a photo

http://www.marx.org/archive/lenin/photo/family/012.htm

[Bryan]

Thanks for the picture Сергей!