King Charles III Helmet Plate

[Dave Wilkinson]

On another forum of which I'm a member, a serving Met. bobby posted the following comments in respect of badge changes:-

 

" Yep, I just worked ceremonial duty on Saturday and there was no attempt by the MPS or any of the UK and British Overseas / Commonwealth Territories police who were in my contingent to replace cap badges or any other EIIR insignia for the Coronation, unlike the military.

And having worn EIIR for 30+ years now I won’t be changing it going forward either! "

 

It transpires that many of the military cap badges which have simply had a crown replacement (KC for QC) have been very poorly produced with a KC simply soldered over the QC, which remains in situ underneath. That alteration is from all accounts, very poorly done and very obvious in many cases.

 

Dave. 

 

[bigjarofwasps]

4 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

On another forum of which I'm a member, a serving Met. bobby posted the following comments in respect of badge changes:-

 

" Yep, I just worked ceremonial duty on Saturday and there was no attempt by the MPS or any of the UK and British Overseas / Commonwealth Territories police who were in my contingent to replace cap badges or any other EIIR insignia for the Coronation, unlike the military.

And having worn EIIR for 30+ years now I won’t be changing it going forward either! "

 

It transpires that many of the military cap badges which have simply had a crown replacement (KC for QC) have been very poorly produced with a KC simply soldered over the QC, which remains in situ underneath. That alteration is from all accounts, very poorly done and very obvious in many cases.

 

Dave. 

 

Interesting 👍.

 

This chap needs to remember that he’s in a  disciplined organisation, and he’ll do as he’s bl**dy well told!! 30 years wearing a Queen’s crown badge or not, when the time comes he WILL start wearing the new badge. Don’t know where he thinks he is.
 

Will await physically evidence with regards to soldered cap badges as well…

 

However I did groan, when I saw this photograph. Why she was allowed to be in the King’s presence, improperly dressed is beyond me. 

[Dave Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

Interesting 👍.

 

This chap needs to remember that he’s in a  disciplined organisation, and he’ll do as he’s bl**dy well told!! 30 years wearing a Queen’s crown badge or not, when the time comes he WILL start wearing the new badge. Don’t know where he thinks he is.
 

Will await physically evidence with regards to soldered cap badges as well…

 

However I did groan, when I saw this photograph. Why she was allowed to be in the King’s presence, improperly dressed is beyond me. 

Regrettably, I fear that when the time comes no Sergeant or senior officer will enforce the wearing of CIIIR insignia in the Met. Looking at the TV its the norm for some of them to wear helmets which are three sizes too big for one thing. The majority do not know how to wear a cap properly. Many have removed the wire from the crown and as a result look like bus conductors. In addition it appears to be quite acceptable to have two or three inches of each trouser leg draped over their shoes/boots. They either need a pair that fit properly or a pair of braces. Take a look at the on line videos of their pass outs. A disgrace. So, making them wearing CIIR badges will certainly not be high on the agenda. I don't think the poor wearing of uniform is confined to the Met. It appears endemic in most forces these days. Don't forget, telling someone off for poor standards of dress is bullying! One other thing, why is it that male officers don't appear to shave before coming to work anymore? In my day you'd be sent home and told to re-parade in a clean shaven condition for the following shift. 

 

The female who is wearing just the LS medal is from a county force, not the Met. She probably arrived in London without her other medals, or perhaps with no medals at all? Again, preventing her from performing an outside duty in public view because she forgot her medals could be construed as bullying. No Met. boss would dare impose that restriction nor I suspect would a Sgt. or Inspector from her own force if she was accompanied by such. Interestingly, there appears to be a female Chief Constable to the defaulting Constable's right. She presumably neither said or did anything in respect of the lack of medals.

 

There is a video on the MoD website showing preparations for the Coronation. Part of it shows the inside of Firmin's factory and their staff fixing new crowns over the old on cap badges and examining the re-crowned finished item. 

 

Dave.      

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dave Wilkinson

[Danny980]

Good evening. 
I am a serving MPS officer and also an ex-Guardsman with 23 years service with the colours. 
I have seen first hand the differing levels of turnout over the last 40 years in both the army and police. 
To address some of your comments. 

Tunics - No longer personal issue in the vast majority of county forces. Officers from some forces were issued temporary tunics for the coronation, to be returned after use.
So you can imagine the level of fit/tailoring. 

The MPS still issue tunics, but they are very rarely worn, with the exception of Passing Out parades, occasional Crown Court and promotion board interviews. 

Medals - The military quite rightly place a great emphasis on medals, ribbons, mounting and when they are worn. Soldiers, sailors and airmen all take pride in them. 
Within the MPS, there is absolutely no emphasis placed on medals, which are only worn on tunics. 
So if you don't even possess a tunic??

Some officers wear their entitlement and some don't. Some are swing mounted and some are court mounted. Some are even loose, side by side!

I know officers who have four medals, all of which are still in their boxes, tucked away in a draw at home. 

Nothing is likely to be said to an officer who chooses not to wear their medals.
It's a personal choice. 
A lot of police officers view jubilee and coronation medals and even the LSGC as meaningless. 
This is evidenced by the ones being sold online.  
I recently messaged a seller on eBay who was selling a police LSGC and two jubilee medals, asking who had they been issued to. I was shocked when the seller replied that following retirement he was selling off his own medals!

Cap Badges - No direction has yet been given, but I anticipate that within the MPS new hats/helmets and their associated badges will simply be issued over time as old ER stock runs out. Any other way would be very expensive and wasteful. 
There is always the chance that new badges will be issued for beat duty helmets, as officers tend to retain their helmets for a number of years.

We will have to wait and see. 
 

Turnout - Within the MPS we still take steps to ensure that our officers look the part, and the vast majority do. There will always be officers who struggle to meet those standards, just as there were in the Guards.
Within the military you had to produce the worn out item of clothing to obtain a nice new replacement. 
Within the MPS officers simply request new shirts, trousers, hats etc (within reason) and the new items are delivered within days, with no requirement to hand in the old/worn item. 
And it is certainly not viewed as bullying to address poor turnout , which we do on a regular basis. 
Beards, overt tattoos and 'man buns' are all accepted today, across the whole police service. 
 

I hope that this enlightens you all as to the workings within the modern day Police and I would be happy to answer any other questions. 
 

Danny

Irish Guards
Metropolitan Police

[Dave Wilkinson]

Danny,

 

Thanks for your very detailed response, I appreciate it.

 

Much of what you have said confirms my own thoughts which I outlined in a previous post. On the subject of medals, I too regard Coronation and jubilee medals as being relatively meaningless. On the other hand I do value my Police LS & GC medal. I can understand your shock at finding a retired bobby selling his medals on line, but many retired police and MoD employees do so and will no doubt continue. Just wait and see what happens when the Coronation medals start to be rolled out. Within days they will be on eBay. The prime sellers will be serving bobbies out to make a fast buck.

 

Please explain why so many Met. men wear helmets that are far too large for them. I saw several at the Coronation (Met. men) who looked stupid and yet no one presumably bothered to say anything yo them. Why are men and some women wearing trousers that do not fit and that have two or three inches of trouser leg draped over boots and shoes and as a result look like a version of "Nora Batty". Why are some men not bothering to shave before they parade for duty. Why are they not being taken to task by Sergeants' and Inspectors' ?  Look at pass out videos and you will see plenty of ill fitting kit being worn. This is inexcusable. If a recruit is given the impression that this is acceptable at an initial training level, what hope is there that he/she will improve when they receive their postings? These issues are not confined to the Met., but are endemic in all forces.

 

I've put these failings to several recently retired Sgts and Inspectors (both Met. and provincial). Without exception they say that its not worth bothering to take individuals to task. If they tell someone once and they don't comply, to do so again is inviting of complaint of bullying. There is no support from above. So, no one bothers. 

 

Yesterday, I went to a Police Insignia Collectors meeting. Yes, I'm one of those "sad" individuals that collects badges. There was a good representation from seven or eight forces. Without exception all said that there are no plans to change to a CIIIR/KC helmet plate or cap badge in their respective forces although some indicated that vehicle marking may be updated as and when. 

 

Thanks again for your input. It is appreciated.

 

Dave.

 

 

 

  

Edited May 15, 2023 by Dave Wilkinson

[dpk]

Sadly, the 'relaxation' of uniform, discipline and behaviour standards within Police forces is just the tip of the new, woke, trendy iceberg. Anyone who has what many of us consider to be traditional values of self-respect, discipline and adherence to traditions is now classed as out of date, old and mired in the past.

The problem is that the younger members of many police forces were never taught any or many 'values' in their homes- they were brought up thinking that the world revolved around them. They were taught all about their rights and entitlements, and nothing about their obligations and responsibilities.

In my later years in the job I looked at young coppers who were mightily disillusioned that after doing 6 months or a year in a position, they hadn't been promoted to the next level. My response to them (if asked for it!) was 'Suck it up, Princess' which of course was not politically correct at all.

As a wise man once said, 'Tradition does not mean raking through ashes, it means passing on a flame...'.

Thats it- my rant for the day!!  

[Dave Wilkinson]

8 hours ago, dpk said:

Sadly, the 'relaxation' of uniform, discipline and behaviour standards within Police forces is just the tip of the new, woke, trendy iceberg. Anyone who has what many of us consider to be traditional values of self-respect, discipline and adherence to traditions is now classed as out of date, old and mired in the past.

The problem is that the younger members of many police forces were never taught any or many 'values' in their homes- they were brought up thinking that the world revolved around them. They were taught all about their rights and entitlements, and nothing about their obligations and responsibilities.

In my later years in the job I looked at young coppers who were mightily disillusioned that after doing 6 months or a year in a position, they hadn't been promoted to the next level. My response to them (if asked for it!) was 'Suck it up, Princess' which of course was not politically correct at all.

As a wise man once said, 'Tradition does not mean raking through ashes, it means passing on a flame...'.

Thats it- my rant for the day!!  

Sentiment's that I agree with in their entirety!

 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

Nottinghamshire Police Warrant Card badge. 

Greater Manchester Police Warrant Card Badge.

[Megan]

I feel quite sorry for police officers these days. The uniform they are expected to wear looks more suited for a trip to the gym (especially the tops!) than going on the beat. Neither West Midland or Cheshire police seem to go in for helmets, either. It's all caps or the silly hats they give female officers.

 

It quite put me off when I was of an age to consider joining that women didn't wear helmets, I quite fancied them! But after they lost my application 3 times I gave up... it just was not meant to be.

[Farkas]

The other day me and my Mum actually saw a copper wearing his helmet and he had no hi-vis on either.

 

He looked great, a fine figure of a man.

 

6 hours ago, Megan said:

I feel quite sorry for police officers these days. The uniform they are expected to wear looks more suited for a trip to the gym (especially the tops!) than going on the beat. Neither West Midland or Cheshire police seem to go in for helmets, either. It's all caps or the silly hats they give female officers.

 

It quite put me off when I was of an age to consider joining that women didn't wear helmets, I quite fancied them! But after they lost my application 3 times I gave up... it just was not meant to be.

 

As you say they’re a sorry looking bunch nowadays...

 

tony 🍻

[Ian Shepherd]

Hi in Cheshire they also wear baseball caps

[NickLangley]

The manufacturing quality of the new warrant card badges is terrible. One step up from what you would find in a Christmas cracker.

[bigjarofwasps]

Greater Manchester Police C111R Helmet Plate. 

[Dave Wilkinson]

The CIIIR badge changes seem to be slowly taking place now. Staffordshire Police have introduced a new helmet plate and cap badge. The helmet plates are currently only being issued to recruits. The attached pic. shows the new cap badge on a PCSO's cap.

 

Dave. 

[bigjarofwasps]

[bigjarofwasps]

[bigjarofwasps]

[bigjarofwasps]

New style Hampshire and isle of Wight Constabulary helmet plate, cap badge and warrant card holder.