King Charles III Helmet Plate

[bigjarofwasps]

Saw this, thought it might be of interest?

[Dave Wilkinson]

Made as a prop. for a fictional TV production (Children of the Damned") about circa. 20 years ago.

 

Dave. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[dpk]

Will be very interested top see which crown he adopts- probably won't be the George V, VI, EIIR crowns- possibly EVII, but maybe an older or new one?

[I_♥_Police]

I wonder if it will actually look something like that and how long it will take each force to have a new one made and send them out what with the economic issues in Policing. I wodner also if they will issue a new medal for the change of the monarch?

[paul wood]

I wonder if on coinage and medals whether he with use the title Carolus IIII D.G. REX F.D. or with it be anglicized. Mind you as a crusty old Jacobite he is Charles IV as far as I am concerned, Bonny Prince Charles as he is known in popular literature, Charles Edward Stuart, heir apparent of James III (the so called "warming pan baby"), became Charles III on his father's death following the unlawful usurpation of William Stadtholder of the Netherlands in 1688; however the royal lines converged at the treaty of Amiens when Henry IX (Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart) renounced his claim and recognised George III.

 

Any other Jacobite forum members?

 

P

[bigjarofwasps]

1 hour ago, I_♥_Police said:

I wonder if it will actually look something like that and how long it will take each force to have a new one made and send them out what with the economic issues in Policing. I wodner also if they will issue a new medal for the change of the monarch?

I’m in no doubt, they’ll definitely be a change in police badges and a new effigy on the LSGC, but when that will be and how long that will take is anyones guess…….

[paul wood]

They will certainly issue a medal for the Coronation, whenever it takes place, which I suspect will be warded to the same people as the platinum Jubilee.

 

P

[bigjarofwasps]

1 hour ago, paul wood said:

They will certainly issue a medal for the Coronation, whenever it takes place, which I suspect will be warded to the same people as the platinum Jubilee.

 

P

I don’t share your optimism, although there will undoubtably be a Coronation Medal. I suspect it’ll be along the same lines as the Queen’s Coronation, awarded to only those physically there and or a select few issued to each force. But I guess we’ll just have to wait and see……. 

[Dave Wilkinson]

7 hours ago, bigjarofwasps said:

I’m in no doubt, they’ll definitely be a change in police badges and a new effigy on the LSGC, but when that will be and how long that will take is anyones guess…….

There may only be a change for those forces that currently use "EIIR" as part of their insignia. These days you can count those forces on two hands (if that). If he decides to retain the present Crown, then those forces who use a coat of arms in the centre of their badges will have no need to change.

 

Dave.  

[bigjarofwasps]

13 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

There may only be a change for those forces that currently use "EIIR" as part of their insignia. These days you can count those forces on two hands (if that). If he decides to retain the present Crown, then those forces who use a coat of arms in the centre of their badges will have no need to change.

 

Dave.  

Interesting, but I can’t  think of a single police force that doesn’t have the queens crown as part of their helmet plate  (but I maybe wrong)?
 

Which suggests to me that “when” there is a change from queens crown to kings crown, every force will require a new badge? 
 

Would be very curious, if the king chose to remain with a queens crown, but will have to wait and see….

Edited September 15, 2022 by bigjarofwasps

[Dave Wilkinson]

The City of London Police do not use any crown on their helmet plate and never have. Hampshire Constabulary use the arms of Hampshire as their badge. That does feature a representation of a crown. However, this has never been altered, due to the fact that the design is a grant of arms registered by Hampshire County Council at the College of Arms.

 

The Guernsey Police have worn the same KC helmet plate since circa. 1902. They didn't change it in 1952, so I can't see that they will change it now.

 

The Belfast Harbour Police have worn the KC on their badges since 1939 and still wear it.

 

Finally, Sergeants and Constables in the Herts. Constabulary are still wearing a QVC on their cap badges and have never changed despite the Sovereign's crown changing not once but twice in the intervening years.

 

It seems that there is no hard and fast rule.

 

Dave.   

Edited September 18, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[Graf]

Interesting topic

[bigjarofwasps]

On 19/09/2022 at 04:21, Graf said:

Interesting topic

Would appear, that King Charles has now opted for cypher with bearing a Kings crown?
 

Assume this means that there will now be a change in cap badges etc.

 

Although when this is likely to take place, I don’t know. An article I was reading suggested that we won’t see new bank notes until 2024 and coins would be minted as demand presented itself.

 

Of course the million pound question is, when we will see a change in effigy on medals! 
 

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

I predict that many will not bother changing the actual metal badges for many years, if not at all. Far too much expenditure involved. Forms, letterheads and the like will probably be changed immediately in those forces that use the cypher. Again, others may not bother.

 

Dave.

[Dave Wilkinson]

Interestingly, the Garter King of Arms has said publicly this morning that there is no requirement for "Organisations" to change their current Crown and Cypher. It is a matter for them to decide upon.

 

Dave.

[NickLangley]

I'd be willing to bet that the Home Office will use this an opportunity to continue its long-term "stealth nationalisation" of policing by using costs as a reason to introduce a standardised cap badge/helmet plate to be worn by all forces.

[Dave Wilkinson]

27 minutes ago, NickLangley said:

I'd be willing to bet that the Home Office will use this an opportunity to continue its long-term "stealth nationalisation" of policing by using costs as a reason to introduce a standardised cap badge/helmet plate to be worn by all forces.

Well, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts. If they believe that one force in particular, the City of London Police, will bow to their attempts, then they are seriously deluded. No, I don't think so............

 

Dave. 

[bigjarofwasps]

43 minutes ago, Dave Wilkinson said:

Well, I wish them the best of luck in their efforts. If they believe that one force in particular, the City of London Police, will bow to their attempts, then they are seriously deluded. No, I don't think so............

 

Dave. 

I agree Dave.
 

Good luck having a standard English version in Wales….

[NickLangley]

City of London perhaps, but that's the Corporation of London; they are a law unto themselves. As for the rest who is going to put up a fight?

 

Welsh forces will have "Hedlu".

 

It's happened before: Scotland.

Edited October 3, 2022 by NickLangley

[Dave Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, NickLangley said:

City of London perhaps, but that's the Corporation of London; they are a law unto themselves. As for the rest who is going to put up a fight?

 

Welsh forces will have "Hedlu".

 

It's happened before: Scotland.

The Scottish national badge was introduced in the 1930's. However, right up to the 1970's some Scottish forces continued to wear their own force badges. The national badge was a "suggested" badge not a mandatory one. Of course, Scotland now has a national force and it follows that they wear a national badge.

 

The design of the PSNI badge is enshrined in an act of parliament and cannot be changed without a change in the law. They are, by law prohibited from displaying overtly any badge except those defined in their act. 

 

The Home Office has tried twice, in 1935 and again in the 1940's, to standardise uniform and insignia. It largely failed on both occasions. So, unless they seek to promote legislation requiring a mandatory standard police badge for England and Wales, I don't think it will happen.

 

Dave.  

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Dave Wilkinson

[Rusty Greaves]

Oops, I accidentally posted here about King Charles III coins. I shifted it to the appropriate thread: "King Chalres III coins" in the "Coins & Commemorative Medallions" thread in the "See ill Interest Section". 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Rusty Greaves

[Mike McLellan]

I thought that the KC was actually a representation the the Imperial Crown, in use since the reign of Victoria. Reverting to that crown might be seen as a wistful longing for a return to the days of the British Empire, sparking at least some controversial debate. 
Retaining the older "St. Edward's" crown (QC) on official insignia might be a less aggressive alternative. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mike McLellan

[Dave Wilkinson]

It's an Interesting thought Mike. That said, by the time that EIIR came to the throne in 1952, apart from India, Newfoundland and a couple of other places, the British Empire was still largely intact, with the St. Edward's Crown being widely displayed and worn. It was 

only in the 1960's did Britain begin to see the "Empire" shrink through colonies and territories achieving independence and even then, many retained the Queen as head of state, and indeed many still retain the King as such although that will no doubt change in the fullness of time.

 

Now, if CIIIR had decided to revert to the style of Crown commonly depicted during Victoria's reign that could indeed be interpreted as making some sort of statement along the lines you suggest.

 

Dave.

[bigjarofwasps]

Thought this might be of interest?

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by bigjarofwasps

[I_♥_Police]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting and first example I have seen.

 

On a side note, someone has changed the Ministry of Defence Police page on Wikipedia to a new logo with CiiR however it has been changed back so I assume this may be 'fan made'? I have not seen anything on Force twitters or facebook announcing they have changed cap badges which would likely be done. The Met would surely be one of the first but this does not seem to have happened yet.