EK 1914 Non-combatants EK2 1914 on combatant ribbon

[JensF.]

I think this is the classic combination of the rare cross mentioned in the title. Only 6855 of these have been awarded.

Edited May 3, 2006 by JensF.

[JensF.]

Black backing. The medal bar is 100% genuine and passed all "tests". I never saw the maker "Jmme" on a Hindenburg cross before! I only know it from WW2 Luftwaffen badges...

Edited May 3, 2006 by JensF.

[ekhunter]

Black backing. The medal bar is 100% genuine and passed all "tests". I never saw the maker "Jmme" on a Hindenburg cross before! I only know it from WW2 Luftwaffen badges...

Excuse my ignorance, but I don't get it! Do the other medals indicate a non-combatant? Please educate me here.

[Guest Rick Research]

Jens: what's the "IMME" Hindenburg made out of? Is that real bronze, or bronzed steel? I've never seen one, either.

I think this is indeed a likely candidate for the "third type" of EK--

my documented group's recipient Hauptmann dR D?hring was a similar "stay at home" while also picking up Etappen awards from Hamburg and Austria-Hungary.

Of course, ONLY the actual documents can PROVE the "combatant" Iron Cross and NON-combatant Hindenburg combination is correct and original.

Yours certainly does not look like anybody has monkeyed with it.

See a similar medal bar and some discussion (and illustration) of a NONcombatant "black white" ribboned Iron Cross/NONcombatant Hindenburg combination in:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7734

[Bob Hunter]

I'm wondering how many different makers there were for the HK or have discussed that in an earlier thread?

[JensF.]

@ekhunter: Yes, the non-combatant Hindenburg will identify the EK as the rarest of all EKs.

@Rick: The Imme-Hindenburg is made of bronzed steel. I think we can be sure by 100% that his EK is "the one" since the germans were very correct in awarding the Hindenburg crosses usually after the entries in the Milit?rpass (if I am correct) and so someone who only heard shooting at the range will never get the combatant HC.

Edited May 3, 2006 by JensF.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, on ORIGINAL bars...

but we do NOT want to encourage Bad People to run around ripping apart "normal" combatant medal bars to come up with this combination.

While very interesting, I would not pay any more for a medal bar like this than for one that DID have the Hindenburg with Xwords-- thus thwarting any nefarious criminal mutilation of real bars. (The same applies to loose unmounted "white black" ribboned EK2s, as well. Anybody any time can swap a ribbon, it is the PAPERWORK that proves it.)

Only the AWARD DOCUMENTS can prove that a group like yours is real-- and THOSE would make the complete group indeed worth extra money!

[JensF.]

Of course. Your document was the first one I ever saw for that type of EK2. And of course we don't want these @??$%3)(? to "upgrade" standard EK2/HK medal-bars. Most important is that my feeling as collector says for this medal-bar... You know what I mean.

[Guest Rick Research]

Right. And I agree with you. This is EXACTLY the sort of person-- a dR/dL officer--I'd expect to have the Weird Version EK. I'll assume "officer" with the all-ranks LD2 because so far nobody has turned up one of these "black-white" NONcombatant EKs TO any enlisted ranks.

[ekhunter]

@ekhunter: Yes, the non-combatant Hindenburg will identify the EK as the rarest of all EKs.

@Rick: The Imme-Hindenburg is made of bronzed steel. I think we can be sure by 100% that his EK is "the one" since the germans were very correct in awarding the Hindenburg crosses usually after the entries in the Milit?rpass (if I am correct) and so someone who only heard shooting at the range will never get the combatant HC.

I must of had tunnel vision on the ek and the ribbons, just noticed the missing swords next to it. Now I understand. Nice Ribbon Bar! Never seen one like this before! I learn something new all the time. Thanks!

Edited May 4, 2006 by ekhunter

[Ulsterman]

I must of had tunnel vision on the ek and the ribbons, just noticed the missing swords next to it. Now I understand. Nice Ribbon Bar! Never seen one like this before! I learn something new all the time. Thanks!

Consider a third possibility- a number of Bavarian POW guards who never saw combat in 14-18 received the EK2 for service against the Spartakists. So did other Freikorps men. There were also late EK2 awards -sometimes by petition, as with Von Ribbentropps' EK1.

Nice bar.

[JensF.]

Did they receive the EK2 for actions after Nov. 11, 1918? However this would make the cross much rarer than what I expected

[Chris Boonzaier]

another factor to calculate in is non combat EKs with black ribbons can be not only for service at home, but also for service in the field, occupied areas etc. I have a group or two to army men who got a regular EK2 but HK without swords.

Chris

[JensF.]

Chris, can you post the documents for these EKs?

[Ulsterman]

Did they receive the EK2 for actions after Nov. 11, 1918? However this would make the cross much rarer than what I expected

Apparently yes.

A historian south of me has two Militar passes to elderly Bavarian Landwehr men who both got the EK2 in late 1919. Their only unit stamps and assignments are the depot, a POW camp and a Reserve Lazarett. They are with a lot of Freikorps type paper and have been together a long, long time-from the 1930s or so and are part of a much larger Bavarian "collection" that I am surveying.

Previtera also estimates @200,000 EK2s awarded post war to all ranks. I have noted a LOT of officers docs which show that the officer recived nothing through 1918 and then, as a consolation prize, receives an EK2 upon or shortly before/after being demobbed. Many of these are depot types.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Ulsterman

[HeikoGrusdat]

I know many EK docs dated after 1918 - but they are ALL for awards given between 14-18 !!!

But why not... maybe some Freikorps leaders had some EK`s in their bag left and awarded them to their men (a bit inofficial of course...)

I would like to give this statement more weight with the following pictures....

I think most of the imperial german collectors know the silver made battle clasps that were especially made for the EK2 - they are not very often to find but I am lucky enough to have some... the following picture shows what they look like, here are some examples:

[HeikoGrusdat]

Now we come to the clue.... look what papa has found..... the following clasps are 100% the same : same makers mark, same style, same material - BUT : THE PLACES ARE FREIKORPS BATTLES !!!!!

I have never seen this before, maybe private purchased like the other clasps but for an EK given for Freikorps fights??? I think we will never know exactly but it gives more space for further thoughts... ENJOY!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh, there is no question about it. I have SEEN documents awarding Iron Crosses for Freikorps action--

and the same with Wound Badges. NOT late "wartime" awards, improper local awards FOR 1919.

And yes, those officers kept them and wore them right through the Third Reich.

It would take me too long to hunt through 10+ year old German dealer sales catalogs now, but they were in there. Given H?sken's prices, he probably still has some of the same stock available!

[Daniel Murphy]

Speaking of post war awarded EKs, I have a grouping (and military records) of a Hauptmann d.R. Arnold Heeren who since October 1916, commanded the II Batt. of Infanterie Ersatz Truppen at Lager Jablonna near Warsaw (This was formerly Russian military base "Camp Hurki"). There were 3 battalions of ersatz troops at this camp. When the war ended on November 11, 1918, the men of the former Pilsudski's Legion were released from German camps where they had been confined since refusing to take an oath of allegence to the Kaiser in 1914. They arrived in Warsaw by train the next day and the Polish Regency Council appointed Pilsudski as the commander of the Polish Army. Apparently the German military government asked Pilsudski to help prevent anarchy and attacks on German troops still in the area and armed his men. Pilsudski had other plans, which were to disarm the Germans stationed here and take them as prisoners. Some of Pilsudski's men occupied the rail station outside of Lager Jablonna and ordered the Germans to lay down their arms and surrender. The Germans, of course, refused to be disarmed and there was an attempt to disarm them by force, which resulted in a three-day battle at the camp. This attack failed and resulted in a Polish defeat. The Germans at Lager Jablonna were then allowed to leave and return to Germany by train starting on November 15, 1918. Hauptmann Heeren was soon returned to Germany and was demobilized on Nov. 30, 1918. His EK 2 was awarded on September 16, 1914 and his EK1 was awarded to him on August 25, 1919.

Hptm. Heeren had last served at the front in June 1916, when he received his third wound. So, I thought that if he had been recommended for a EK1 due to an action in 1916 but the paperwork was lost (or whatever), he had two years to get the error corrected and should have been awarded it before August 1919. Perhaps it was so late because he was awarded it for the post-war engagement with these Polish troops. Any thoughts on this?

Dan Murphy

PS: One more thing to add. Where it lists the battles he participated in, one entry states "1917-1918. Service in the war zone at Warsaw".

Edited May 10, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Ulsterman]

This has gone from a good thread to a really, really GREAT thread-interesting stuff Gentlemen.

Heiko- really, really, really good bars.

Are there any photos out there of these bars in wear? The one for Berlin is especially interesting- I wonder if its for 1918/19 or the Kapp Putsc-or both?

Pity Verkuilen Ager isn't here-yet. i shall invite him.

[Daniel Murphy]

Heiko,

I have to say, when it comes to bars, you are the man. That is a great group of post war bars, can you tell me what medal the Freikorps bars are on?

Dan Murphy

[HeikoGrusdat]

another inofficial thing.... and these 4 are really the only ones I have seen in my lifetime which do not belong to ww1 battles - but all of these EK-clasps were private purchases, so the maker would have been done what the proud soldier has ordered.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris, can you post the documents for these EKs?

Hi,

I will have to dig around.... an example that comes to mind (have to look for it) was a NCO at the Nachrichten Kommandeur of the 18. Armee Ober- Kommando.

Regular black ribonned EK... but HK without swords.

Probably never heard a shot fired.

From my index file it would be the following man..

Unteroffizier Carl Lahmann (beim Nachrichten-Offizier der O.H.L.)

The award was made on the 1 September 1918

The document was signed on the 7 September 1918 by Rittmeister Devaux, Nachrichtenoffizier der O.H.L.

The document is a special print for the A.O.K. 18

[JensF.]

Just got this rare bird. Another one...

[Jason]

My small contribution. I've had this one for around 15 years. No reverse shot (sorry!) but it has black backing.

cheers

Jason