Noor Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Hi everyone,I am trying to study every day my small Imperial Germany collections and another two questions have arrisen. 1. What does "W","R","A" and "V" mean between the Red Cross (the Balkan Cross?) negative spaces around it?2. Approximately how many of those medals were awarded?Thank you,Noor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eagle Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Wilhelm RexAuguste Victoria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted June 2, 2007 Author Share Posted June 2, 2007 Thanks Red Eagle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 695 of these had been awarded up to January 1913. At the rate they were awarded, figure another 60-ish for the rest of 1913 and the first half of 1914 before the war broke out. (There is a gap in verifiable numbers January 1913 to August 1914).There were 8,399 2nd Class for the First World War, so figure that comes to about 10,050 overall for the 2nd Class. About 115,000 3rd Class and about 225 1st Class pinbacks.At SOME point during the war these changed from real silver to silvered base metal, but WHEN is not known. That would affect the numbers of real silver versus alloy. The overwhelming majority will be the latter type like yours.Although by statutes the 2nd Class could not be awarded until the 3rd Classs was held for "at least" 5 years (both were worn together), there are many many post-1918 awards as these petered out where ONLY a second class seems to have been awarded-- perhaps mistaking the "AFTER 5 years" about holding the 3rd class for "5 years OF service" which by then anyone in the whole war had performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted June 2, 2007 Author Share Posted June 2, 2007 Thanks Rick. But when this award instituted then? I was sure that after the WW1 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 No-- from 1898 on. It was created JUST before the spelling reforms at the end of the 1890s and the reverse inscription was never modernized from "ROTHE" Kreuz to "ROTE" Kreuz. The old-fashioned spelling remained unchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted June 2, 2007 Author Share Posted June 2, 2007 Thanks Rick! You are great man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 All Hail the Rick The RICK is the ONE, The ONLY, The EVERTHING!!!!Kevin in Deva, Sorry Rick, must be the delayed train lag for the 456 km covered by a s l o w t r a i n to and from Brasov. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Award figures thanks to the late great unsung hero of Prussian awards statistics, Eric Ludvigsen. I am but the Keeper.(Heat on, windows rolled down through the Industrial Waste Zone again, Kev? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcross Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 how many of the 1st class were awarded?thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) @ redcross: I don't know it by heart but the number of awarded 1st class decorations (Stickpin type of decoration) was well under 100!Ciao,Claudio Edited June 12, 2007 by Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 how many of the 1st class were awarded?thanksAt the risk of stepping on Rick?s toes, I will pass on the following information from Nimmergut - In the first round of awards in 1898, eight insignia were given. Further, during WWI there were another 161 awards.Rick, again I apologize if I jumped in too soon. Did Eric have anything on this?Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcross Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I knew of Nimmergut's figures, but I also knew there were other figures used, an was hoping to learn which is the definitive word. or perhaps even a medal roll. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I don't have any toes. Eric Ludvigsen counted a total of 217--8 in 1898 18 in 18995 in 19002 in 19032 in 19053 in 19063 in 19072 in 19086 in 19096 in 1910and 1 in 1911There is the gap 1913 and 1914, but these were sporadically awarded (none in 1901, 1904, and 1912) so we can't assume ANY might have been awarded necessarily in the period February 1913 to July 1914.Eric also has 161 for WW1 (these being as late as 1920, since awards continued for years after the war)I don't know WHERE Eric got the WW1 figures, but they have always been consistently cited for my entire collecting "career" (over 40 years). I suspect the original source was something printed during the Weimar Republic and cited by Dr. K-G Klietmann in one of his 1950s or 1960s monographs.Although the statutes say that the 1st Class should also only have been granted after the 2nd Class had been held "for at least 5 years," obviously most of them went to people of high status, regardless of actual service. Here are some "double" Red Cross groups. I've got three others around-- will come back with all scanned the same size:Prussian regulations gave separate positions precedence to a 2nd versus a 3rd Class-- and that was confused in 1916 by a change in regulations that made any Red Cross Medal awarded during the war a "war decoration," allowing buttonhole wear and eventually what SHOULD have been mounting before a Hindenburg Cross etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komtur Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 (edited) I will add some figures too (if there are no two toes to step on) According to Elke Bannicke (Numismatisches Heft 3 1996) there were produced 260 red cross 1st class decorations in the Berliner M?nze between 1898 and 1921, these are the official awarded decorations. There are also different crosses made by Godet (see advertisement of Godet in a journal from 1918), probably on behalf of private persons.The number of 161 awarded 1st class crosses is mentioned in the Journal "Kyffh?user" 12/1937 for the first time.Peter Sauerwald counted in the "Preu?ische Ordensliste" (until 1913), in the "Deutscher Reichsanzeiger" and "K?niglich Preu?ischer Staatsanzeiger" (from 1913) 114 awards (Journal "Orden und Ehrenzeichen" 26/2003).Elke Bannicke/Lothar Tewes suppose (Journal "Orden und Ehrenzeichen" 37/2005), that the reason for the gap between produced and documented awarded figures is caused by spontaneous awardings of the Kaiser in the war, wich often can?t be found in official journals. They showed, that the produced and awarded numbers of crosses until 1914 is the same (about 70). The difference is only to be found in the war, when 190 crosses 1st class where produced in the Berliner M?nze and the documented number of awards is distinct lower (about 40). The production in the war of these 190 crosses is splitted in parts of single sets between 10 an 50 from 1914 to 1921. The economic situation of Germany allows in the war and after only to produce things, wich are needed. Therefore Bannicke/Tewes conclude, that all the 190 step by step in the war minted crosses are awarded afterwards. So the complete number of awarded red cross 1st class decoration must be about 260 (the number of produced crosses). Edited June 13, 2007 by Komtur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komtur Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 A red cross 1st class decoration by Godet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komtur Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 The back of the Godet cross (it is marked Godet 938, unfortunately not to be seen on this pic):Greetings, Komtur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 The back of the Godet cross (it is marked Godet 938, unfortunately not to be seen on this pic):Greetings, Komtur.Thanks for posting the images! It is the first I have ever seen!! Was this one of those social tier awards, or could anyone possibly be awarded it.It is a very beautiful award!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komtur Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Thanks for posting the images! It is the first I have ever seen!! Was this one of those social tier awards, or could anyone possibly be awarded it.It is a very beautiful award!!The first class were given to high ranking persons involved with personal activity or with donations of money in the work of the red cross society. To be active there was en vogue for woman of the nobility. So you can find in the lists mentioned above the Herzogin von Anhalt, F?rstin zur Lippe, Gro?herzogin von Luxemburg, Erzherzogin von ?sterreich and so on. I found only one picture of a person with the 1st class: Generalstabsarzt der Armee Otto von Schjerning.The first class by Godet was not by the Generalordenskommission officially awarded. These were only the minted crosses by the Berliner M?nze! May be someone can show an original of these awarded crosses. But be careful, there are a lot of copies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) It looks funny how those Red Cross medals sandwich something else ... [a little bar from my father's small collection, by the way has never been shown anywhere by now ] Edited September 10, 2019 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 (edited) "alway show the back" ... Edited September 10, 2019 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcross Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 I believe these are pix of the issue 1st class badgethe back, which has no marksit is from my collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcross Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 and this is the frontwhich, if the dealer was correct is not a copy[i unfortunately have bought those too] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 It looks funny how those Red Cross medals sandwich something else ... [a little bar from my father's small collection, by the way has never been shown anywhere by now ] That is the ultimate DRK bar!! I wonder if it is tracable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 That is the ultimate DRK bar!! I wonder if it is tracable? I don't know, it m a y be. Only 556 of the Z?hringer crosses were given out on the Karl Friedrich ribbon ... Rick, have you seen the device on the ribbon, which is actually for the ribbon bar? I'll scann you some of them soon, if you need them for your ribbon bar article ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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