Paul R

EK 1914 My new non-combattant medal bar

77 posts in this topic

ID: 1   Posted (edited)

I want to share with you my first mostly Imperial medal bar, fresh in. I am guessing that this bar belonged to a combat medic, NCO.

I do have one question(as always), what was the criteria for award of the Red Cross medal?

For me being a medic myself, medical/noncombattant medals and uniforms are most desireable. I feel a certain kinship to these people who were often in the line of fire, not to kill or take an objective but to aid those who have fallen often times on both sides of the fight.

Regards

Paul

Edited by Paul Reck

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back... I will try to zoom in on the maker mark on the EK. I cannot make it out with my naked eye(and I see 20/17!!! )

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Here is the highest magnification I could get on the ring(400%). It is still not legible.

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outstanding, paul!!

the MM on the EK 2, in my estimation,

will end up being in the "not decipherable"

catagory. nonetheless, it is a crisp, clean

EK beauty!

ya' done GOOD!, paul.

joe

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Joe said it,outstanding.As a medal bar collector all I can say is NICE.Can you give us some info

in how you got it.Nice Bar

don

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Joe,

I stared at the maker mark for about 10 mins. My guess is that it is either a 2 or a 7... Right when it would come into focus, my sight would blurr... I really need to procure a magnifying glass!

Don,

I bought this from Stogieman! I have always wanted a NC bar!

Thank you all for your compliments.

I know that I have seen others out there. Please post them here!

Regards

Paul

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Frontline medical personnel got frontline awards.

This is an interesting and at first, in the theoretical realm of regulations, unlikely combination BUT no fear, one that often turns up--

I refer to the War Effort Cross and Red Cross Medals, which were given for different things and to types of recipients that the foundation decree of the War Effort Cross explicitly excluded-- Red Cross work.

The biography that this bar tells us is this:

The recipient served in the German military during WW1 but never in combat= Hindenburg Cross for "war participants" i.e. noncombatants. The three decorations could have been awarded to a civilian-- but civilians were not eligible for the Hindenburg Cross.

The three decorations are all wartime-- the Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd Class being the wartime zinky issue. So he was a VERY well decorated non-combat area Beamter.

ANY mounted "white-black" 1914 Iron Cross is a find-- 13,000 of those, versus 5,000,000 "black-white" combatant ones.

Your man was not a career up from the ranks NCO-- no long service medal, yet this style mounting was generally worn (99.9%) BY noncommissioned ranks-- which makes his awards all the more impressive. (The lower down the chain of command, the less likely to be decorated...)-- which makes me think he was a war's duration appointment to some specific but unknowable (where oh where oh where are the documents all the time!?) specialist NCO level job.

I have a documents group including "white-black" EK2 and a War Effort Cross to a well decorated (pair, at his level) Bezirkskommando top administrative NCO (search "Sprungmann") who never left Hamburg.

That is the sort of person whose bar this was.

Although BEFORE the war the Prussian Red Cross Medals were apparently more often than not given for donations, during the war they were largely for medical related services. (I also had one to a Landsturm economics service over age Private but who was before and after the war a lifelong civilian Red Cross ambulance volunteer)...

so my best guesstimate is this bar belonged to a medical depot/supplies administrative NCO level war's duration soldier, back in Germany. ONE of these three awards would have been a big deal. TWO of these three awards would have been-- like my guy-- a Very Big Deal Indeed. ALL THREE is just incredible. :jumping::jumping::jumping:

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ID: 8   Posted (edited)

Thank you Rick for outlining this gentleman's military service.

To clarify things a bit...

1. I thought that the EK was awarded for valor on the field... Black and White for combattants(infantry, artillery, ant etc) and White and Black for noncombattants (medics, supply, and etc)... in the field

2. War Effort Cross for contribution to the war effort(simular criteria to the WW2 War Merit Cross).

3. The Red cross medal was awarded for perhaps pre/post war volunteer service in the Red Cross.

I do have a question...

Something I do not understand is that you state that the Noncombattant Iron Cross was awarded for contribution to the war effort off of the battle field. If that is the case, isn't the War Effort Cross being awarded for the same criteria kinda redundant?

Please assist me in understanding this. I am learning a lot here!

Paul

Edited by Paul Reck

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Yup. We'll leave aside the :speechless::speechless1::speechless::speechless1: 6,854 "black-white" combatant ribbon EK2s for noncombatant home service-- I thought I had posted a document for one under "D?hring" hereabouts someplace... but no. A certain Mr. Boonzaier is doing detailed EK weirdness work and all will one day be revealed. (It says on the document-- no difference in the Crosses! Maybe in daylight I will post the Whole Weird Story) :rolleyes:

BEFORE 1914 it was the arms-bearing status of the recipient that determined ribbons, not where it was earned. So an 1870 frontline medic with an arm or leg blown off got the same "white-black" ribbon as a civilian war loan drive superachiever back home. And during the colonial campaigns, Prussian war decorations on the same two ribbons led to medical officers and Beamten, oft' stuck on ourtraged natives' spears and the like getting Orders WITH swords... but on the "noncombatant" ribbon.

That was just plain CRAZY, and after the Herero-Hottentot War of 1904-06, combat recipients of "white-black" Orders with swords were able to petition for ribbon changes-- you can see them changing over in the annual Rank Lists as they got permission to switch.

So in WW1, "white-black" was (don't ask oh don't ask about the 6,854!!!!!!!) for HOMEFRONT service, whether military or civilian. I am sure there were civilians up front in hospital organizations who were killed and wounded by enemy fire who got "white-blacks" because even Up Front they were still civilians.

And then of course there are stunningly atypical "freaks" like THIS old geezer, a Beamter who had served in 1866 and 1870-- with a "white-black" 1914 EK2 appropriate to homefront service out of his buttonhole

[attachmentid=17989]

If he was still alive in 1935 he'd have been entitled to a combatant Hindenburg Cross for that wound... with his Rear Area "white-black" EK2! :speechless1:

"Something I do not understand is that you state that the Noncombattant Iron Cross was awarded for contribution to the war effort off of the battle field. If that is the case, isn't the War Effort Cross being awarded for the same criteria kinda redundant?"

Yes, it certainly was. :cheers: And I can tell you there were probably Cabinet Ministers in the government who WISHED they got both... and never did. Which is what makes yours and ones like mine:

[attachmentid=17990]

(though an "officer" level type, it took MY guy 20 more years to get his "triple!" :cheeky: ) special.

Although the comparison is far from exact, the closest comparison that I can make between a 1914 "white-black" EK2 AND war Effort Cross pair is to a WW2 civilian no swords KVK2... and KVK1.

And ask yourself when the last time you saw an award document for one of the 90,000-odd KVK1-no swords was, by comparison, too.

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ID: 10   Posted (edited)

Rick,

Thank you for further clarifying the difference between the two types of EK.

Well, as we know there were a lot more KVKs awarded than EKs in WW2. It is shocking that there are FAR less NC EKs(for noncombattant contribution) in WW1 than combattants. I wonder why this is the case. Was the NC EK considered to be a higher level of noncombattant contribution (like a KVK1 would be higher level of contribution than KVM or KVK2)?

That is one heck of a grouping! :love:

The man in the photo must be near 80. If he were 18 in 1866, he would have been 66 years old in 1914!!! Incredible that he was wounded in ww1 and survived!!

That medal bar with the Red Cross medal and Long Service award is absolutely stunning. If it ever becomes available... :love::love: I wonder what branch of the TR Government he worked in!

Paul

Edited by Paul Reck

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This was always one of my favorite ribbon bars, but now it's even favoriter. Thanks for the info. :cheers:

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That is a beautiful Ribbon Bar!!! Two Red Cross Medals! :love:

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ID: 16   Posted (edited)

Bob,

You have some truely mindblowing bars!! I love them!! :cheers::love:

That medal bar must have gone to a mid to high ranking officer! Maybe a doctor?

Edited by Paul Reck

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...or it may have been one of those lounge lizards that Rick refers to on occassion.

OBTW, I found another one and I would appreciate some help identifying the last two ribbons on the bar.

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...or it may have been one of those lounge lizards that Rick refers to on occassion.

OBTW, I found another one and I would appreciate some help identifying the last two ribbons on the bar.

The last one is either the so-called "Awaloff Cross", a freikorps decoration, or one of several decorations issued by the Austrian branch of the Maltese Order. So far, pretty much all of the handfull of ribbonbars with that ribbon that have surfaced appear to be more likely the Awaloff decoration - however yours is probably the most likely of the bunch to have been the Maltese decoration. Either way, rarer than hens teeth. :cheers:

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ID: 20   Posted (edited)

RE: Paul's bar:

You might also want to think "chaplain" as they were often awarded the Red Cross medal, the Prussian war aid cross and I have seen a few with noncom EK2s in photos.

I have seen WW2 shots of chaplains with HKs, but have yet to see an HK award doc to a Priest serving as a chaplain during WW1.

I have also seen these types of doc groups to Asst. Arzts back in the homeland.

Edited by Ulsterman

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And then of course there are stunningly atypical "freaks" like THIS old geezer, a Beamter who had served in 1866 and 1870-- with a "white-black" 1914 EK2 appropriate to homefront service out of his buttonhole

[attachmentid=17989]

Rick, love the "Old Geezer" photo and the medal bar!!!

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ID: 23   Posted (edited)

It is the "Milit?r-Sanit?tskreuz" from Hessen. The 1914 model with the red-silver ribbon. There was also a version with the same ribbon like the Bravery Medal for frontline merits. This one was for service at home.

Edited by JensF.

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