Nick

Soldiers Died to my recollection does not include RFC officers. Nick

James Fascinating stuff. Thanks for that family history. He was a brave man your father that is for sure. A really nice set of medals too. Thanks for sharing it with us. Nick

Yes you are quite right the dark edges are the adjacent ribbons.

I go with that Don, plus they should take precedence oer the Anschluss medal. But wait is that indeed the Anschluss medal ribbon ??

Paul I am not going to go down the road of what I think of COAs, but as for Detlevs if he sold the medal with a COA he would refund the money. I am not sure what happens if a third party sells a medal on with a Detlev COA whether this still means he guarantees it or not. As for the 800 version I simply do not know either way, it is not something I have seen before.

Paul Interesting subject this one and a very overlooked medal. Which is nothing new as it was also downplayed during the Third Reich era as well. This is a mounted group. The lifesaving medal has been worn by the medals either side and denazified, the other medals on the group had been reversed to hide the swastikas, so I presume that this group had been worn post war at some point, maybe at veterans events. Unfortunately the messing with the medals has caused them to be misaligned. Back to the life saving medals. This is the silver marked half moon version. As for the 800 silver marked version this is not one I have heard of before. Looking at the medal on the WAF thread it certainly looks interesting. But just because it appears in a book or has a COA , does it make it original ? I am sure Detlev has his reasons for believing in its authenticity, but I would like to hear others who have knowledge of this manufacture type for this medal. Nick Chairman

VtwinVince This thread is about a stolen collection of items. Please do not try and hijack this worthwhile thread with such a controversial topic, which is obviously politically motivated and unwelcome. A reply is unnecessary. Back on topic please Thank you

Rick One of the bugbears abour Police & Fire Brigade LS Medals is that they are only show rank and name, no reference to the force or brigade, and no warrant or service number, which as said make them a nightmare to trace. There are no annual bestowal list either although the Royal Mint names the medals so they may have a central reference list, but I doubt it. Therfore each force or brigade will hold the records.

Yes I have to agree with you on this one. There are many serving soldiers out there now with a chest full of ribbons, compare that to 15 years ago and you were lucky to see two or three up, with the single GSM being the norm. Go back further to the 60 and 70 and it was even worse, one if you were lucky or two if you were a long time server. I am not sure if this is a good or bad thing really

I wouldn't be so sure on it not happening, I think it is long overdue and the OSM was not designed to replace long term campaign service. The OSM was designed to stand in for the GSM in operations that did not warrant a specific campaign medal. However this I believe was with lack of foresight into what was on the horizon. Suddenly the British Armed Forces are committed to a pretty major on going campaigns. This to me cries out for a new GSM for campaign service supported by the OSM for minor operations. Is it right that the Iraq War medal should still be issued for ongoing operations in Iraq, it is no longer a minor operation so does not warrant the OSM, but by the same token the actual "war" is arguably over, I think this calls for a new GSM Iraq Bar. But only time will tell They are also issuing bars as above.

Graeme I am not sure that the Accumulated Service medal can be issued other than for service awarded for the GSM. As they have gone down different paths with the OSM and now Gulf War medal I am not sure it will count. But I think perhaps it is time for a new GSM.

Rick The dreaded Accumulated Campaign medal is a bit of a strange beast, and considered unnecessary by many. It is awarded for a total of 36 months accumulated campaign service on top of the 1962 GSM. In other words service for which originally is awarded the GSM, which accumulates to more 36 months or more get this medal. Another 36 months earns a bar. It was brought in to recognise multiple tours of Northern Ireland for which the GSM was initially awarded, but no recognition could be made on top of that original award for subsequent tours.

Two post have been removed for not being conducive to the good order of the club. Members have been contacted with regards their conduct.

This is simply not true Wayne, I gave you several weeks to sort this issue out, but you failed to act. You have my email address and Sals and could have approached either one of us to resolve this issue without sneaking back, as you put it, a long time ago. I am glad you have eventually shown some remorse, all be it a little late in the day, but to be a member here you need to treat people with respect, and I am sorry to say, that has been some what lacking on your part.

This one I have always been sure is OK and is good for comparison.

Marcus Excellent work and thankyou for letting us know your findings. I was suspicious of these packets not so much for the printing error, but because of the sheer numbers out there ! But it looks like we can now put that one to bed !

Jim I think you will find it was made compulsory for certain proffessional seamen to be RNR just prior to WW2. My grandfather was actually confirmed in the rank of RNR Skipper in January 1939 and trained in A/S in May 1939. He was mobilised to full time Naval service in Sept 1939. He had actually received his Skippers Certificate in 1929. In short to be RNR you were already a full time professional seaman in the merchant service or fishing fleet. A bit different from todays RNR which is actually what the RNVR was then. Volunteers who were part time seamen and had other professions on land. Many officers joining the Navy during WW2 were commissioned under the RNVR for war service as opposed to joining the RN as a career officer. A bit different to the army and yet again adding to the confusion.

Jim Cheers for the link it has made it a bit clearer now. But as you say very hard to determine true rank or status i.e. Warrant Officer or Commissioned Officer from some of the titles. It seems that the RNR pre WW2 was made up almost entirely from professional seamen. I know my grandfather was called up very quickly after the outbreak of war and he served the entire war on various trawlers in the RNPS. I understand he was not that fond of the regular navy and did not have a very high opinion of their officers in term of seamanship. Like nearly all those RNPS men he was a hardened professional trawler man Skipper, who made his living from the sea and operated through out the war in very dangerous and extremely tough conditions. When I read the exploits of some of these men I realise that they are the little known element of the Royal Navy, that had an unglamorous and dangerous job which they carried out with professional pride. True heroes and truly hard men, the last of a dying breed.

Jim I have looked at his papers he was promoted to Chief Skipper in 1944. I have a picture of him in uniform which appears to be an officers uniform with the officers cap badge and the cuff lace is a very wavy crossed pattern as opposed to the normal loop and rings or wavy pattern of the RNVR. In his book he is shown as A/Skipper Lieut for many entries and ended his war service as Acting Skipper Lieuteunant. Confused !!! I am.

Jim Nice to see you about ! You played a big part in that growth

Cheers Jim for the information. I thought it was complicated enough back at the turn of the 19th Century but it seems even more complicated up until after WW2. My grandfather was a RNR officer during WW2 with the rank of "Skipper"

Jim My interest in the Royal Navy are more the traditions and uniforms especially pre 1825 regulations. The rank structure obviously has changed over the centuries mainly due to the age of sail giving way to a different era of ship in the late 19th Century. Todays ranks, as you say, seem to more reflect the Army structure of warrant officers with WO2 and WO1 ranks as well as POs and Chiefs. I wonder what the modern day equivalent rank compared to the old Amiralty Warranted ranks of Ships Masters and Master Mates etc are. Originally Petty Officer ranks such as Quarter Master and Boatswains Mate etc were not warranted by the admiralty as such and were only good on the ship they served on.

When did the rank structure for Warrant Officers change within the Navy ? Obviously there used to be several Petty Officers ranks which ranged from Boatswains Mate, to Quater Master, Masters Mate and Ships Master. But where these more roles than ranks ?

Well it does seem to be well made thats for sure.

Rick I have to agree that the back looks like a very strange, it looks almost home made as opposed to mass produced ?