Biro

Great job Andy-B ... and all of you:beer: If you or someone could find time to scan the advert, I'd love to see it... Marshall

Does anyone know at what stage - if indeed ever - Godet and Werner were in bed together? I've never read of this association but see the occaisional bar about marked thus.. Marshall

I simply asked if it was hollow?...

Hi Dan Thanks for your PM - I found your friends silver gilt piece interesting for a number of reasons, hence the request for the close-up. There was no mention of markings, and as the PLM design and award date dictate the Christiansen piece can only be attributed to either Friedlander or Wagner, my interest was perked! With the aid of Steve Previtera's fine book, my own PLM and some friends here, I'm studying the various characteristics of the 3 wartime manufacturers and it was with interest that I noted that Christiansens PLM did not fit entirely 'snuggly' into the evolution of the Wagners/Friedlanders based on award dates and associated die deterioration.... at least as far as I've discovered. Of course, there is no reason to assume that PLM's - like any award - were both made and awarded in strict chronological order - many had to wait to receive theirs due to wartime conditions.... but conversely, between Dec 1916 (when the silver gilt decree came into force) and Christansens Dec 1917 award date, award numbers were still comparatively small and therefore, logically, so were the production numbers. Some PLM's I've studied were awarded a mere 4 months after Christiansens (April 1918) and are already exhibiting heavy flawing, yet from what I can see, his has none. Based on what I've learnt so far, my guess would be that his PLM was made well before it's presentation date of Dec 1917. Its lack of distinctive die flaws and some lettering characteristics appear to have more in common with the hollow gold or even rarer hollow silver gilt pieces than the late war solid PLM's from these two makers, where die deterioration was evident. Anyway, my point (which may or may not interest your friend) is that the closest I can come to a Wagner/Friedlander PLM that fits all the parameters exhibited by Christiansens PLM and it's award date is a hollow silver gilt piece.... which would make not only the awardee but the piece itself exceptionally rare. Strictly speaking though, there should at least be a silver content mark? If it's solid, then from the total lack of flawing I figure it had to have been made VERY soon after the Kaisers December 1916 silver gilt decree. What does your friend know about the piece and can he add any specifics to the equation? And please if anyone needs to correct me on any points, feel free... Marshall

Looks like an unmarked 'KO' to me...

Hi Dan If your friend has the capability to do a really good close-up shot of the Ob and Rev eagle I've highlighted on the gilt piece below, I would be very keen to see it... either here, or by email if necessary. cheers Marshall

Yes - there appears to be two topics running in tandom in this thread... so to summarise for the latecomer, the questions are... #1 - Are the 3 PLM's posted at the very bigginig of the thread comparing the eagles of 1 wartime and 2 postwar PLM's from the same original wartime die? IMO, Yes - totally & undeniably. #2 - The 2 pieces posted later by Gordon (one belonging to the Hersing estate and one belonging to Gordon himself) have been described by Sauerwald as '1930's Wagners'. Plainly, they are not from the same die as the three PLM's we began discussing originally, so the inference from Sauerwald is that Wagner had COMPLETELY new tooling made in the 30's. This is a far more momentous claim and one that is apparently not backed up by a maker mark or in fact any hard evidence other than Sauerwalds own speculation. Nonetheless, it is an interesting claim and one well worth discussing. It does appear that this same PLM die was later used by S&L for there product. That's where we're at so far.... Marshall

No problems here - looks perfectly good award type to me.. rather straight arms, but I wouldn't get too hung up on that. Congratulations. And it would look better with the original ribbon, whatever its condition... Marshall

Hi Gordon Many questions in relation to the Sauerwald article.... I don't read German, so I have to grill you instead of reading the article..... Does Sauerwald give any indication (photographic or text) as to why he feels it to be a piece from Wagner? Is it Wagner marked? Did the two big names also indicate whether they thought yours was a Wagner product? Your example, being silver gilt not bronze, having the correct style of suspension loop, and showing superior eagle detail and finishing compared to S&L's obviously shabby (but essentially identical) '57 examples would indicate someone who new what they were doing had a hand in assembling it - it's not impossible that this could have been the Wagner firm using the fore-runner to the dies S&L used later, but I beleive Sauerwald would have to come up with some pretty conclusive proof! I haven't the faintest whether Wagner re-tooled for PLM's in the 30's of course, but one would have to ask why.... given that only a couple of years prior (as Tim's 20's version exhibits) their original wartime tooling was still being utilised - albeit with some sort of re-jig with the added chest feather cross hatching - and was by all accounts 'still going strong'.... ...give or take the odd flaw... ;-) regards Marshall

Rarer - much rarer... and infinitely more valuable... Keep sharp men - these could fool even the experts http://cgi.ebay.com/Small-German-1813-Iron...1QQcmdZViewItem

Welcome aboard and welcome back to the hobby.. er... 'zook'...! 1813 Ek2's do appear occaisionally - if you are quick (the auction starts tomorrow) Andreas Thies has an OBSCENE amount of great looking Imperial Ek's in this months auction... including 3 or 4 1813 EK2's and an EK1. Even with the ugly 20% commision, I would suggest that this is still the most cost effective way to buy one you can be certain of. Otherwise, Niemann or Wietze are well worth watching. If I see a good one offered, I will post the link to it here for you. Expect to pay Euro 1200 - 1800 from these guys. regards Marshall

A great addition Ralph! What a shame we are only given a clue as to the manufacturer of the carton and not the decoration itself. The carton is the highlight though! Well done. Marshall

Hi 1st pattern wound badge - gold I'm not at all familiar with wound badges and this has been offered to me... Is it what it purports to be and what are your thoughts? many thanks men... Marshall

To be honest, my suggestion would be that we leave it at that... particularly with the images. I'm all for exposing a fake - but protecting an original is a little more delicate.. M

Looks great Greg..! M

Tims piece was struck on the Wagner/Friedlander dies. Anyone who can not afford the 12k plus for wartime version (938 marked,no chasing etc...) should see this as ABSOLUTELY as close as they will get to a legitimate PLM. Niemans last postwar Godet sold for around 6k... so in that respect it's 'cheap'. So am I now 'shilling' for Tim? Who cares - it is what he says it is and it deserves a good home. Marshall

Here...

Dan No you're not mistaken - this is indeed a '57 S&L PLM.... meaning he was nearly 60 when he or the museum purchased this duplicate. The document I assume is the original?... so either his issue PLM and document have been somehow seperated over the years, or they don't display his original PLM and document at the museum. Maybe someone knows the story? Either way, some great pics from a very colourful individual - thanks for posting!. I presume you know of this site http://www.juenger.org/ Marshall

Rick There is no reverse picture of that bar shown - although one can be obtained. I'm still stunned at finding this little 'gem' offered by HH with a starter of 1000 euro.. A known fake - and a bad example of it at that!! Not a confidence builder M

Mine... [attachmentid=30830]

I agree with Les... The PLM case is the item in this group that could warrant further inspection.... little else. From a telescopically great distance (as usual), the PLM itself looks to be either Spanish fake or S&L post war... If anyone has requested better pics - which the seller rather effervescently offers to send! - it would be interesting to see them here. M

Thanks very much Coastie... The glare from the artificial light makes it a little difficult to know exactly what I'm looking at here - if you get the chance at some point, perhaps a super close-up across the face of just one arm from a more horizontal angle (rather than straight on) would be great. Don't ask for much, do I... Anyone else have an opinion on whether Coasties piece does in fact appear to be 'stove' or 'oven' enamelled? Marshall

Fact is, as Micha has already said, the core of the ebay piece is 100% typical authentic Meybauer... and the 'DRGM' device too - so makes little sense that it would be 'embellished' with a fake Meybauer mark and all the risks that entails, to add.... what ... $40 to the price? The maker mark in my opinion looks a little odd simply due to a combination of poor photography and a less than enthusiastic strike. I agree with those who think it's a totally fine piece. Marshall

Would anyone sure of the subject be kind enough to post a good close picture of an iron cross core they consider to be 'stove enamelled' and not painted, blued etc... many thanks! Marshall

Solomon A very nice cross indeed... congratulations. I'm interested to know how you are able to identify it so positively as a 'typical Wagner'? thanks Marshall